Poured insulation! Am I missing a trick here?

[Nickfromwales]

https://www.clockworkscreed.co.uk/poured-floor-insulation
 

These guys just screeded a project I’m currently on, and did a very neat, meticulous job. Laid to the mm for the sliders, and the flush threshold at the front door, so 5 stars afaic.

 

The client mentioned wishing he’d gone for this instead of the sheets of PIR / EPS etc that got laid down ready for the screed.

 

Says 0.037 and PIR is .022 so what’s the consensus here folks?

[SteamyTea]

Expanded polystyrene beads in concrete, all held in place with powder silica (they call it aerogel, but it is not really) as a thickening agent.

Used similar to make some resin transfer moulding tooling about 35 years ago.

You could make your own mix up quite cheaply, but would need a bit of development, which is really what you are paying for.

Nothing really wrong with it in principle.

[saveasteading]

what is the cost?

 

Obv it isn't appropriate for encasing UFH pipes. below it, PIR is presumably cheaper.

 

If the existing floor is rough then maybe use this.

[-rick-]

Could save a lot of labour if trying to lay a lot of insulation. Is this viable as an alternative to the EPS300 under insulated slabs?

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, saveasteading said:

what is the cost?

Not yet enquired.

 

Just now, saveasteading said:

Obv it isn't appropriate for encasing UFH pipes.

This was my thought. You'd need to pour this down to the thickness proposed for the insulation layer, and then fit the UFH, which would then be a PITA, and then come back and screed. I have done a few UFH installs where the subfloor is solid, and it becomes a PITA tbh, with a few hands to the pump, whereas with a clip gun and a pipe decoiler I can do a whole house on my own with relative ease (where the harpoon clips are stabbing into sheet insulation).

 

The floor on this particular job was 'rough' and on 2 slightly different levels (existing slab and new B&B platforms to the extension), but no option to boost U value where the thinner areas were would be a concern. A mix of 175mm of PIR and 250mm of EPS was used, and then ~65mm Cemfloor. Far better than the 0.037 they state as "world leading....."

 

"Aeromix offers the world’s best insulation value of 0.037 W/mk"??

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Could save a lot of labour if trying to lay a lot of insulation. Is this viable as an alternative to the EPS300 under insulated slabs?

Dunno. I shall ask!

 

"It has a minimum compressive strength of 110 kPa, is exceptionally lightweight at 93kgs/m³, and offers a significant reduction in bleeding. Clockwork Screed can pump 1000m² of Aeromix a day which helps to keep project timescales to a minimum.

 

Aeromix can be applied directly onto hardcore which reduces the cement content of the floor’s composition. Aeromix can also be laid on concrete subfloors and over beam and block.

 

Being lightweight and offering thermal and acoustic benefits, Aeromix creates savings on other areas of floor construction such as the need for insulation boards beneath underfloor heating systems and acoustic adjustments."

 

Doesn't say what thickness at 1000m² though, just like Carlsberg is PROBABLY the worlds best larger..... 2mm thick 100mm thick? Surely folk would like to hear how many m³ they can pour in a day?

[saveasteading]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

polystyrene beads in concrete,

ahhh. Not rocket science then,  and at end of life this is contaminated concrete, and the eps can't be recovered.

I don't know the mix, but guessing 20% eps. so a 100mm pour of this would have the same amount of eps as a 20mm board below 80mm screed. But the board would work better as it is continuous.

 

Doesn't begin to compare favourably with the typical 100mm pir with a screed over.

 

My hunch says this is a gimmick or of very limited use.  Marketing will say otherwise.

 

I'm trying to think of  a good use.  Upgrading a grotty existing slab in a workshop or office perhaps, where headroom and budget are limited. and where a slightly insulated floor rather than none is of some value.

 

Just seen @Nickfromwales further comments.

It is world leading insulation only for concrete. from the density it is half eps.   So 50mm eps with 50mm screed above would be better insulation at .. what cost?

 

Edited October 7 by saveasteading

[Nickfromwales]

4 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Upgrading a grotty existing slab in a workshop or office perhaps

Yes, defo has a home, just not so sure that's in an actual home...

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I'm trying to think of  a good use

May be useful as a first pour in a retrofit, then cover with PIR.

As a finished floor, I would be wary.

I used to know a guy called Ewan, better known as Dr. Cement form Newcastle.

He helped me a lot when I was developing the RTM tooling.

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

a first pour in a retrofit, then cover with PIR.

It would have to be very grotty indeed. PIR will follow the dips and compress over lumps. then the top screed takes it to level.

 

My best use seems to be simply for a new surface in a workshop being converted to a workshop. Upgrade everything by whatever means to scrape the U value required.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

PIR will follow the dips and compress over lumps. then the top screed takes it to level.

I wonder how my better it is, thermally, than AAC.

[saveasteading]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

thermally, than AAC.

Celcon blocks are 0.22. so its much better than that.

[ADLIan]

Nothing to back up thermal property claims, lapsed certification and website littered with errors. Appears the 0.037 W/mK is just for the polystyrene bead, finished product is nearer 0.4 W/mK. Either lack of understanding here or playing fast and loose with the claims!

[Oz07]

39 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

what is the cost?

 

Obv it isn't appropriate for encasing UFH pipes. below it, PIR is presumably cheaper.

 

If the existing floor is rough then maybe use this.

Why no good for ufh? Not hard enough? Pipes can be stapled to insulation though

[-rick-]

20 minutes ago, ADLIan said:

Nothing to back up thermal property claims, lapsed certification and website littered with errors. Appears the 0.037 W/mK is just for the polystyrene bead, finished product is nearer 0.4 W/mK. Either lack of understanding here or playing fast and loose with the claims!

 

Are you looking at the manufacturers site?

 

https://www.edilteco.com/en/catalog/thermal/eps-beads-coated-by-e-i-a-additive-politerm-r-blu/politerm-r-blu

 

Not sure that's the exact product, just the last page I was looking at, following through from the site Nick linked.

[ADLIan]

Info is in the European Technical Approval for the product. Took some finding and I’ve lost the link!!

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, ADLIan said:

Took some finding and I’ve lost the link!!

I have the same problem with my wallet, when it is my round.

@Pocster said similar about losing his virginity.

[torre]

Aeromix website doesn't work, aeromix limited active application to strike off at companies house, no BBA approval, can't see a whole lot of advantages tbh

[saveasteading]

42 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Why no good for ufh?

Because it would resist heat from rising into the room. Like putting a blanket over a radiator.  If the pipes are fixed down to an uninsulated slab then it would send heat the wrong way. It would still offer some insulation to the room for whatever heat was there.

So rule it out for any UFH use, which is the most common use for a thin screed.

 

I admit to not having looked past the first page of the product but that gives all the wrong vibes so I expect the rest to be vague at best.

 

Now let's guess. If concrete costs £120/m3, and pumped screed costs $150/m3. Is polystyrene cheaper than aggregate by volume?   About the same I think. so there should be no extra cost for this product....let's see.

[SteamyTea]

36 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Now let's guess.

Fumed silica thixotropic powder is about £40/kg.

 

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

The client mentioned wishing he’d gone for this instead of the sheets of PIR / EPS etc that got laid down ready for the screed.

Similar products are common here in France. Point.P, one of the French builders merchants, stocks a dozen or so with polystyrene or expanded clay - however they mainly seem to be used for their light weight than for insulation.

 

For insulation, it's much more likely that they'd use sprayed PU foam, as I did. It's much quicker and easier than cutting sheets, especially when nothing is flat or rectangular.

 

Example:

 

 

[dpmiller]

didn't @Conor do this?

[Conor]

Yes, we used it. Great job, we chose it due to our very uneven floors and not having the time to put down PIR. Costs were similar at the time once you factor in labour. But these were our intermediate floors, (50mm pour depth) we didn't use it on the basement floor. Need more depth to get the right U value, and it becomes more expensive the deeper you go (as in PIR becomes cheaper per mm)

 

UFH was stapled / clipped to tracks directly on to it. Not as easy as going in to PIR, we mostly used self adhesive strips and left staples for the bends.

Edited October 9 by Conor

[Conor]