Will the building industry ever stop LARPing as Masons?

[YodhrinForge]

I have to say that so far in life, I've enountered few experiences more mindlessly, needlessly frustrating than trying to give the building industry my money. It always seems that you need to put on the fez hat and give the special secret handshake to prove you're One Of Us before any sod will even tell you how much something costs. Something as basic as a webstore with a simple per-unit pricetag is apparently beyond ~95% of suppliers, even the ones who ostensibly sell to the public - like, why even bother pretending? Just say "trade only, DIYers bog off", don't waste my time submitting requests to perhaps maybe be considered for the possibility of buying something, only to turn around and refuse to even give a price unless I provide complete structural plans for the project - I want to know the rough price *before* I get to that point or how else am I supposed to sodding well cost the different options against each other. Computer building, car and bike mechanics, even other trade-esque areas like furniture carpentry and small boatbuilding are at least *somewhat* open to laypersons who want to do things themselves and just need access to buy materials - hell I've never had better customer service than from a local-ish sawmill where I get hardwood and the first time I went there I was completely clueless - but heaven bloody forefend I try and find out how much anything that isn't bog-standard DIY store CLS from a construction materials supplier is going to set me back.

 

Everyone in this crappy country seems to want to pretend they live in the Victorian era for some reason.

Edited September 29 by YodhrinForge

[JohnMo]

Used Travis and Perkins a few times and prices came from a random number generator. No rhyme or reason for for some if the prices. Started to use mkm after that - zero issues, consistent prices, nice friendly.

 

Plenty of websites selling to self builders.

[nod]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Used Travis and Perkins a few times and prices came from a random number generator. No rhyme or reason for for some if the prices. Started to use mkm after that - zero issues, consistent prices, nice friendly.

 

Plenty of websites selling to self builders.

When you get a quote from TP

At least you know it won’t be anymore expensive elsewhere 

[Oz07]

Don't brick manufacturers still have ancient deals where the first merchant to submit an enquiry with your plot gets a % of the sale regardless if you go elsewhere?

 

I've also had it where you get a quote off truss or floor beam or lintel company direct. Tell a merchant and they say we get x% off that and they split it with me for the order.

 

You're right its a minefield

[YodhrinForge]

Oh here's another bugbear - if your timber is 45mmx45mm, then don't bloody well advertise "47mmx50mm joists" and then put "lol jk that's the size before we regularise it" in smallprint at the bottom of the page. I was aware of that pitfall in advance but it still boils ma pish every time I see it, plus even if you're aware of the problem it still makes finding actual 50mm(or whatever size) material a gigantic pain in the bum when the dimensions actually matter. All the joists and rafters in my old house come from a time when the stated dimensions were the *actual* dimensions so trying to find stuff that will match them when I need to deepen, reinforce, or sister one is rage inducing.

[BadgerBodger]

5 hours ago, YodhrinForge said:

Oh here's another bugbear - if your timber is 45mmx45mm, then don't bloody well advertise "47mmx50mm joists" and then put "lol jk that's the size before we regularise it" in smallprint at the bottom of the page. I was aware of that pitfall in advance but it still biles ma pish every time I see it, plus even if you're aware of the problem it still makes finding actual 50mm(or whatever size) material a gigantic pain in the bum when the dimensions actually matter. All the joists and rafters in my old house come from a time when the stated dimensions were the *actual* dimensions so trying to find stuff that will match them when I need to deepen, reinforce, or sister one is rage inducing.

I thought rough sawn was as is, but PSE or CLS is „regularised”

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Yeah, I contracted two posi-joist manufacturers on Monday, attached a few drawings, and asked them to contact me. I'm expecting to spend well into 5 figures on joists. Think they can be bothered? Well not yet certainly.

 

I also have a couple of suppliers that I expect to spend over £100K with. Think they can be bothered to act like suppliers that give a .... monkeys?

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Yeah, I contracted two posi-joist manufacturers on Monday, attached a few drawings, and asked them to contact me. I'm expecting to spend well into 5 figures on joists. Think they can be bothered? Well not yet certainly.

 

I also have a couple of suppliers that I expect to spend over £100K with. Think they can be bothered to act like suppliers that give a .... monkeys?

Have you tried Pasquill?

 

https://pasquill.co.uk/

 

They've been very helpful with a current project.

 

One designer says the job (now borderline fully committed EnerPHit affair) is entirely unique in their companies history......but together we cracked it out; the job (with a few tweaks left to iron out) is good as gold now. When I rang to make some adaptations to the installed roof, so we could tweak the splays on the rooflights, the guy I spoke to said he's still in therapy  

[BadgerBodger]

Also, I found my BM got me an extremely competitive price for outsources items like trusses and insulated B&B 

[Nickfromwales]

Some of the big sheds are cheap for plaster / plasterboards / insulation etc. You just have to keep doing the legwork if you want to save £££, but sometimes you just don't have enough hours in a day to be splitting smaller hairs. If there are big chunks of stuff, then email it off for a quote as early on as you can to get some yardsticks.

[Alan Ambrose]

@Nickfromwales - yeah one was the local Pasquill office.

[Gus Potter]

LARPing

 

Just looked that up! 

 

On 29/09/2025 at 17:35, YodhrinForge said:

than trying to give the building industry my money.

Yup I agree and I work with builders that have to put up with the same shite every day. 

 

16 hours ago, YodhrinForge said:

Oh here's another bugbear - if your timber is 45mmx45mm, then don't bloody well advertise "47mmx50mm joists" and then put "lol jk that's the size before we regularise it" in smallprint

Agree. Some SE's design on nominal sizes when they should not as manufacture's connections ( Simpson, Cullen) work in actual sizes, does my head in as an SE if that is any help. 

 

I wrestle with this in my day job when designing say self builds or extensions. I want to do good SE economic design but I know that if I standardise stuff then the builder gets a volume order and that often out weighs my lean design.

 

It's sad but that is the way the builders merchants thing is working now.

 

At the end of the day I want my designs built at least cost to the Client and I have to bend to market forces. I say hey, this is how small this joist can be but I've made it bigger as it will reduce cost at the end of the day as we are standardising.

 

Sustainable design goes out the window!

 

Many of the professional bodies are talking about sustainable design, I think ok on big projects yes, but on the smaller jobs that really sustain the economy, they are talking out their arse. I don't want to say anymore on that as I'm not in the place or can be bothered to fight a disciplinary case. 

 

4 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Yeah, I contracted two posi-joist manufacturers on Monday, attached a few drawings, and asked them to contact me. I'm expecting to spend well into 5 figures on joists. Think they can be bothered? Well not yet certainly.

 

I also have a couple of suppliers that I expect to spend over £100K with. Think they can be bothered to act like suppliers that give a .... monkeys?

@Alan AmbroseThat's a big order. Now I'll bet they want to do proforma invoicing, cash up front.. but they will be lucky if their big clients pay them in 90 days. I do wonder sometimes if their accountants know what they are doing. Profit is sanity, turnover vanity, unless you have share holders. 

 

 

[saveasteading]

On 29/09/2025 at 17:35, YodhrinForge said:

prove you're One Of Us before any sod will even tell you how much something costs.

OK some home truths I'm afraid.

There is no secret society. It is seriously competitive with high risks.

 

For example today I went to a construction exhibition that had 200 stands and 20 technical lectures. There were thousands of visitors.

It was open only to the construction industry. That is simply because the public would clog the place up, taking lots of time at stands with what would be perceived as a tiny chance of a sale. Professionals then stop going and then the exhibitors.  The public are welcomed at self-build events.

 

I spoke in detail to about 10 suppliers about their product where I also asked for  a guide price. They ALL told me a number. One manufacturer even told me the price they get timber at, which was half of the best I can find. They buy a lorryload every day.

It was professionals talking about mostly big projects, but prepared to consider smaller ones if there is a long term relationship.

I met an MD who used to be a competitor. We compared profit margins. He will tell anyone that without that margin it isn't viable. Those of us with reputations and ethics will also politely decline a project that is based only on price and not quality.

In my own field I would decline to meet potential clients if it was the wrong sort of job or I just didn't take to them. They might respond rudely that it was me being rude. But I could have spent all my time giving out free design and costing advice, earning nothing.  To cost and quote for a one-off project takes much time and staff cost.

But for the right work I would meet them , spend an hour  or more discussing , and give them a very rough cost from experience. That might end up being 10% out either way...  that's a lot of money.  

 

Materials.

As above, suppliers of materials have much the same ethos. What chance do they have of selling that timber to you, if you are asking 10 competitors, and might not even do the project? 

If you want 10 lengths of timber then get a price off Wickes. If it is 100 lengths then deduct 10% maybe 20% as a starting point from a BM.

If you need it and know the spec and lengths and soon, then they will give you a proper price.

If you have a big project coming up then ask to meet the sales rep and talk it through. It involves 2 way trust.

 

What stage are you at? 

On 29/09/2025 at 17:35, YodhrinForge said:

Everyone in this crappy country

Now you aren't going to get anyone wanting to help with that attitude, even less work for you. Or perhaps that is sarcasm.

 

On 29/09/2025 at 17:35, YodhrinForge said:

Computer building, car and bike mechanics, even other trade-esque areas

 

Not remotely the same. 

On 29/09/2025 at 17:35, YodhrinForge said:

just need access to buy materials -

So use Wickes or B and Q. Any reason why not?

Edited October 2 by saveasteading

[Gus Potter]

6 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

OK some home truths I'm afraid.

Your text is easy to comprehend, informative and the thing I love is that you knocked that out in short order, mark of a professional! I've still got a bit to learn. 

 

10 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

o use Wickes or B and Q. Any reason why not?

That is a good question. 

[FuerteStu]

It's a minefield.. For most of us, we're buying small volumes for our home builds. 

 

The professionals who do quotes deal with small margins wouldn't cover their wages by taking the time to deal with our needs and frustrating time windows and questions. That's the way I see it. 

 

For my smaller parts of the project I've swallowed the excess and used wickes and toolstation, because I go past them on a weekly/daily basis. 

 

For the big build stuff I was lucky enough to have a family member who is branch manager at Travis P... And the prices he got things for were unbelievably cheap compared to anything I found online. 

 

I ordered cladding from elsewhere and was screwed around with part deliveries that didn't colour match the rest, and Posi joists from a company that went out of their way to help me with design alterations, and be flexible with unloading by hand on site.. 

 

At every stage I've learned that dealing with a company throws a bunch of very different people under one umbrella, so no two experiences are the same for us. 

 

At times I paid through the nose, but I know that despite being in the industry, these people are making a living too. 

 

I just think of the final project, how happy I am with how it turned out, and how little it cost compared to buying a finished project from someone else. 

[YodhrinForge]

22 hours ago, saveasteading said:

OK some home truths I'm afraid.

Not remotely the same. 

So use Wickes or B and Q. Any reason why not?

M'Lord, I present to the court Exhibit A.

 

First of all, I am unfailingly polite in person. That's why I like pseudononymous internet forums. Secondly, I'm not demanding access to trade shows, or that I be given the same priority as a volume housebuilder, I'm literally just saying if you're bothering to put together a website and you're bothering to claim you sell to the public, there is *no reason* not to put up a per-unit price unless you want to retain the flexibility to fiddle individual people based on your estimation of how clued in they are. If you're still running a business in this day and age on the basis of "okay he wants this much, what can we fleece 'em for" rather than "this is the volume I need to move at these prices, and so each unit must be sold at X - if you make a really big order I might consider a volume discount" then that's a perfect example of the kind of Victorianism I'm talking about.

 

The fact you make so many assumptions - oh he must just be doing some silly wee thing, a bit of wonky sopping-wet CLS from B&Q would do him, what's he moanin' abaht etc - is absolutely typical of the attitude I'm talking about. I'm conducting an eco deep-retrofit of a 19th century stone cottage with a late 20th century masonry extension that will be receiving an additional wooden extension - not using whatever CLS is shunted through DIY stores once the good stuff has been sold through proper BMs, using specialist engineered timber products because long-term dimensional stability is important for maintaining airtightness - and so far as a complete layperson I have discovered exactly two things I'm not comfortable doing DIY - electrics and traditional slate roofing - because frankly it's not exactly rocket surgery, and I have the free time. But that's not what the industry wants. The industry wants you to hire an architect, who instructs their pals who're QEs and SEs, and then call up their buddy who's a builder, who then goes and chats to his pal who runs a BM and gives him a lovely jubbly little deal, and if the plebs try to butt in to any step of that inefficient, incestuous little process we're given as much of a runaround as possible to try and discourage us. 

[saveasteading]

9 hours ago, YodhrinForge said:

The industry wants you to hire an architect, who instructs their pals

You are misguided on this. Read other discussions on BH to confirm.

It is highly competitive and skilled, with some useless people of course.

 

The diy stores have the same timber quality unless someone has already been sorting through it and bought all the best timbers...... it's only dead trees after all.

 

9 hours ago, YodhrinForge said:

not exactly rocket surgery, 

I do like that phrase and will use it

 

But it is actually. I had a long chat with some surgeons once and we found a lot of similarities between the professions.

Anyway, I've said my bit. You think you are being cheated. You're cleverer than the industry so I'll leave you to it.

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, YodhrinForge said:

a bit of wonky sopping-wet CLS from B&Q

I've just bought 26 lengths of 63x38 and 89x38 treated CLS from the local B&Q, and I was pleasantly suprised. It was pretty straight and had been stored under cover. I know it was a small order but I was happy. Very different from the crap I was often delivered from Jewsons when I was building my TF house.

[Alan Ambrose]

Ah, I found out why my joist manufacturers didn't call me back following my email enquiry with some teaser drawings. I broke down and called them both today.

 

It's evident they regard the sale/purchase process as a power battle - I need to prove that I'm worthy of their product. If I can jump over their hoops and satisfy their requirements, they may deign to deal with me.

 

I've never dealt with a Ferrari dealer (one day maybe) but I've heard they take much the same approach.

 

Mutter mutter mutter, 12-week process, duty-of-care, British Standards, mutter mutter mutter. They both spent most of the call telling me what their requirements were, about the limitations of their software, how they need to avoid being sued etc. Why did I want roof joist that deep, that's very unusual (Passive house standards maybe)? The Easi-Joist guys said their software doesn't figure out the roof lights in their deep joists. They both ignored my stated needs and wishes.

 

A good job we don't have all that BS when ordering standard timber.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Ah, I found out why my joist manufacturers didn't call me back following my email enquiry with some teaser drawings. I broke down and called them both today.

 

It's evident they regard the sale/purchase process as a power battle - I need to prove that I'm worthy of their product. If I can jump over their hoops and satisfy their requirements, they may deign to deal with me.

 

I've never dealt with a Ferrari dealer (one day maybe) but I've heard they take much the same approach.

 

Mutter mutter mutter, 12-week process, duty-of-care, British Standards, mutter mutter mutter. They both spent most of the call telling me what their requirements were, about the limitations of their software, how they need to avoid being sued etc. Why did I want roof joist that deep, that's very unusual (Passive house standards maybe)? The Easi-Joist guys said their software doesn't figure out the roof lights in their deep joists. They both ignored my stated needs and wishes.

 

A good job we don't have all that BS when ordering standard timber.

Pasql seemed quite good tbf, once the client had a dialogue and an appointed designer they were very reactive and helpful. 
 

I altered the design (more than once) and they adapted to it on the fly without much resistance.

 

Plenty of advice and support so we could keep traction, replacement posis delivered promptly and at reduced cost, so just speaking as I find.

[Bancroft]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I've never dealt with a Ferrari dealer (one day maybe) but I've heard they take much the same approach.

You're going to hate it when you start talking to your Rolex dealer!🤣.

 

Look carefully in any Rolex dealer window and there will be a little sign saying that none of the watches on display are for sale.

 

Their general policy seems to be that they will only sell you a Rolex if you already own one.

 

But how do you get the first one...?

[Gus Potter]

12 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Mutter mutter mutter

Can I sum up.. "wankers" is I think the word that is on the tip of your tongue.

 

12 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

A good job we don't have all that BS when ordering standard timber.

At some point you want to ask is "stick" building easier in the round, does it give me more control over the programmes of works, price, money up front, ( in Scotland we say "your baws are up to the post once you part with a big deposit) ease of late design changes, general hassle dealing with say Posi Joist / Easy Joist folk.