What's the case for not getting an ASHP?

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Because of this.

 

And this

 

 

And we have historical responsibilities, that few of us want to take responsibility for.

 

 

This last chart is often used to pat ourselves on the back with, and to blame the rest of the world, which we have become very good at doing.

The "we're an insignificant bit of world co2 emissions so there is no point in doing anything..." argument annoys me so much.

 

1)it's usually made by people who, a few breaths ago, were proclaiming how important and world leading the UK is. It seems we the nation all others shoikd look to for all sorts of things, except climate change. 

 

2)the UK per capita emissions are around aboit mid pack. The real danger is if the vast numbers of people in developing nations who are currently emmiting less carbon per capita look at our lifestyle (cars, consumption, hearing, cooling etc) and think "I'll have some of that".  If the UK and other developed nations are moving down it makes it much more compelling to say "hey guys, why not skip the high emissions part of the cycle and meet us at the low emissions phase" 

 

3) renewable power is the cheapest power and the cost of power is a big driver of economic success. 

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

 

 

3) renewable power is the cheapest power and the cost of power is a big driver of economic success. 

 

Yep. And here we are with pretty much the most expensive power anywhere. And stuck with it. By choice.

 

I dont need to repeat myself do i?

 

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

8 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Yep. And here we are with pretty much the most expensive power anywhere. And stuck with it. By choice.

 

I dont need to repeat myself do i?

 

 

 

Which i addressed.

 

If we had zero renewables and were fracking all day every day (which is the position of some in the political discourse) our electricity would be no cheaper and possibly more expensive. 

 

On the other hand, installing renewables offers the UK yhr chance of much greater energy independence. Sure we'll always need oil and gas for feedstocks and for situations we can't electrify (aviation comes to mind) but if we decouple our heating and transport (two big energy users) from gas and oil we'll be better off. 

 

And the most practical route to removing gas from our heating demand is Heatpumps. 

[Dillsue]

14 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Please tell me that you don't think kier and chums, or his predecessors care about you or the people?

That's because government job is to run the country, not hold individuals hands. I'm sure lots of MPs have a compassionate side but their job is to keep the country rolling. The policies needed to do that will always see some individuals prosper and others suffer.

[Dillsue]

19 hours ago, Roger440 said:

They won't. 

 

It's not debatable. They won't do it. The publically stated position is as you say. However, when you read the detail of the policy, there are so many get outs and exclusions, most people won't get it.

Out of interest what size/capacity heat pump/EV charger did you ask a supply upgrade for??

[Beelbeebub]

On the pessimist view of climate change actions. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/commentisfree/2025/aug/20/voices-arguing-climate-crisis-action-is-a-waste-of-time-are-wrong

 

TLDR: yes there's a ton of stuff to do and we need to move faster, but real progress has been made.

 

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

On the pessimist view of climate change actions. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/commentisfree/2025/aug/20/voices-arguing-climate-crisis-action-is-a-waste-of-time-are-wrong

 

TLDR: yes there's a ton of stuff to do and we need to move faster, but real progress has been made.

 

The oil companies strategy on climate change has been clear all along.  First deny it, which they succeeded in doing for a long while (even though their own scientists told them about it), then argue for delaying action now it has become clear that their denials are simply lies.  Eventually (if we allow them) they will shift to arguing that action is pointless and that instead we should buy even more of their products to 'protect ourselves', which of course we can never do because continuing to burn fossil fuels inevitably means that climate change gets ever more severe.  However while we do so we will still be buying their products so they wont care.

 

They pay vast amounts to consultants and others to represent their case, and fund election campaigns (in countries where this is legal) for people who would support them,  They arrange things so that much of the media sing their tune.

 

Unfortunately many people, including some here, appear completely to swallow this misinformation campaign and instead echo their most recent mantra, and blame politicians, who have limited power, need to win elections, and have a job that relatively few actually aspire to (unless they are totally power-crazed in Trumpian fashion which, frankly, relatively few of ours are so far as I can tell). 

 

Despite this they still haven't quite succeeded in 'controlling' governments, who thankfully, continue to do things that are contrary to their interests 

 

No politician is perfect of course, but neither can we expect them to be.  They are only humans and have to operate in the real world and, faced with such a barrage of attack from those with vested interests, necessarily will moderate what they are doing (or how they represent what they are doing).  The fact that the oil-sponsored media are constantly criticising  the measures ours and other governments are taking to mitigate climate change is, in a way, good news, because it means that they are worried that it might actually have an effect on our consumption.  

 

It now appears more likely than not that China is on a mission to benefit bigtime from climate change, by making bold steps towards cheap energy and dominance of the markets.  We can sit in the backwaters slowly watching what remains of the historical benefits of our imperial legacy vanish completely (both in terms of global influence and wealth inherited as a country from our not-particularly-nice forebears) , or we can remain on board.  I say remain, because we are still one of the leaders, notwithstanding the previous government's attempts completely to destroy our credibility on the global stage.  Neither is guaranteed to work, but the former is guaranteed to fail and is also completely devoid of morality.

 

So for me the path is clear.  Yes, we must do what we can to mitigate, to the extent we reasonably can, the 'baked in' effects of climate change, but we must also do what is necessary to stop them getting more severe than they need to.  If that costs a lot of money, so be it, because the alternative costs even more.  We remain a relatively rich nation (even though the wealth is unfairly distributed); we can afford it if we choose to.  Currently we do choose to, not fast enough maybe, with some rough edges maybe, with a little hesitancy certainly, but nevertheless we are as a country pursuing a course which should result in a material reduction in our emissions and, so far as I am aware, not failing materially to invest in measures to combat the effects already baked in. 

 

By carping on about individual facets of the plan we risk throwing out the baby with the bathwater (as most now accept we did with Brexit) and surrendering control entirely to those who are truly self-centred, who seek power for the sake of power and who will do the bidding of big oil.  Is that the route we want the country to take?

Edited yesterday at 09:52 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Out of interest what size/capacity heat pump/EV charger did you ask a supply upgrade for??

I cant see why, with a little ingenuity and assuming no industrial power tools, 60A isnt sufficient anyway. 

 

The baseload can be taken as 10-20A for an EV, 32A for a Heat pump (only when its really cold and even then probably only for relatively short periods) plus the standard 400W=2A that we all have as baseload for our misc electrics.  That fits within 60A. This will of course be exceeded when washing machine, iron, cooker, immersion heater or dishwasher are doing heating, but during these periods, which typically last an hour or two max, either the EV or the heat pump could be turned down/off.  Many EV chargers are capable of measuring supply current to limit output, and all heat pumps can be switched off temporarily either by a dedicated contact or using the call for heat. 

 

To my mind there is a very strong argument that we should all be compelled (or very strongly incentivised) to limit our demand to 60A to reduce the need for expensive electricity network infrastructure upgrades.  France already, I am told, has tariffs which depend on max load, no reason why we shouldn't.  To do things 'sensibly' as opposed to at unnecessary great expense both in terms of money and resources, we have to get out of the mindset that says we can have anything we want whenever we want it and into a mindset which allows some, very modest, compromise!

 

As it happens I don't think I have seen my total instantaneous house consumption exceed  5kW since my heat pump was installed and my EV acquired, but that's influenced by the fact that I only have a granny charger and a 7kW heat pump.

Edited yesterday at 10:25 by JamesPa

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

I cant see why, with a little ingenuity and assuming no industrial power tools, 60A isnt sufficient anyway. 

 

The baseload can be taken as 10-20A for an EV, 32A for a Heat pump (only when its really cold and even then probably only for relatively short periods) plus the standard 400W=2A that we all have as baseload for our misc electrics.  That fits within 60A. This will of course be exceeded when washing machine, iron, cooker, immersion heater or dishwasher are doing heating, but during these periods, which typically last an hour or two max, either the EV or the heat pump could be turned down/off.  Many EV chargers are capable of measuring supply current to limit output, and all heat pumps can be switched off temporarily either by a dedicated contact or using the call for heat. 

 

To my mind there is a very strong argument that we should all be compelled (or very strongly incentivised) to limit our demand to 60A to reduce the need for expensive electricity network infrastructure upgrades.  France already, I am told, has tariffs which depend on max load, no reason why we shouldn't.  To do things 'sensibly' as opposed to at unnecessary great expense both in terms of money and resources, we have to get out of the mindset that says we can have anything we want whenever we want it and into a mindset which allows some, very modest, compromise!

 

As it happens I don't think I have seen my total instantaneous house consumption exceed  5kW since my heat pump was installed and my EV acquired, but that's influenced by the fact that I only have a granny charger and a 7kW heat pump.

I think 60amp is more than adequate to electrify a domestic property.....we have a 100amp DNO supply but a 63amp mcb feeding us and it's never tripped.

 

I was asking Roger the size he stated on his HP connection application to understand more as to why the ENA say that the upgrade should be free, yet Roger is being asked to stump up £20k

[-rick-]

IIRC Roger has an offer to go to 80A for free but no more and no three phase which Roger wants for other reasons (workshop). Even for a house with relatively poor insulation I would have thought a heat pump could be made to work within the supply constraints.

 

Skill Builder had a series of videos on Youtube where they looked at a property that had a badly installed heatpump that didn't do the job and heatgeek came in and fixed up the system and ended up with a happy customer. They installed some cheap loft insulation but otherwise the property was old solid walls, etc, at least for a large part of it.

[Beelbeebub]

A battery system would allow higher instantaneous demand for periods of time without overloading the grid. 

 

60a (14kw) could be upped to 90a (+30a, 8kw) with an 8kw battery system. 

[Nickfromwales]

57 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

I think 60amp is more than adequate to electrify a domestic property.....we have a 100amp DNO supply but a 63amp mcb feeding us and it's never tripped

 

43 minutes ago, -rick- said:

IIRC Roger has an offer to go to 80A for free but no more and no three phase which Roger wants for other reasons (workshop). Even for a house with relatively poor insulation I would have thought a heat pump could be made to work within the supply constraints.

A modern inverter heatpump is no worse than flicking the toaster, kettle and microwave on together, so the hoo-hah is just a storm in a teacup afaic.

 

I worked in a house a good few years ago which had a 60a feed; a very big 5 bedroom house with 100% electric living for everything other than space heating (oil), 3 electric showers, massive induction hob, 2 ovens etc, and an detached annex with electric freestanding cooker, electric shower and immersion > DHW cylinder for a sink and basin (basically a flat over the garage).

 

They ran like that for 6 years, large family, house fully occupied, one shower in the master ensuite was 10.5kw! Not a single issue, but I bet that fuse (supply head DNO HRC type) was molten for half of its life lol.

[JohnMo]

7 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

battery system

A battery in the shed, connection to house, drive ASHP or A2A in shed plus tools. 15kWh battery plus interconnection cable £6k(ish), charge on octopus cosy - three cheap rates plus normal rate most other times. Allow battery to back feed house when not needed in shed. GivEnergy AIO has a 6kW inverter for charging and output loads. Anything above 6kW gets taken from grid.

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, -rick- said:

IIRC Roger has an offer to go to 80A for free but no more and no three phase which Roger wants for other reasons (workshop). Even for a house with relatively poor insulation I would have thought a heat pump could be made to work within the supply constraints.

 

Skill Builder had a series of videos on Youtube where they looked at a property that had a badly installed heatpump that didn't do the job and heatgeek came in and fixed up the system and ended up with a happy customer. They installed some cheap loft insulation but otherwise the property was old solid walls, etc, at least for a large part of it.

It wasnt free, they wanted to charge for that too. But it wasnt very much.

 

[MrPotts]

We are spending billions on renewable energy whilst at the same time paying renewable energy companies millions to turn the supply to the grid off whenever the wind is too strong or the sun to bright. This is all added to our energy bills!

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, Dillsue said:

I think 60amp is more than adequate to electrify a domestic property.....we have a 100amp DNO supply but a 63amp mcb feeding us and it's never tripped.

 

I was asking Roger the size he stated on his HP connection application to understand more as to why the ENA say that the upgrade should be free, yet Roger is being asked to stump up £20k

 

The bit missing here is i also have a workshop with demands as well. 

 

Primarily a compressor, which whilst it wont get used every day by any means is going to be 7-10kw affair. And a load of other much smaller stuff.

 

I didnt make an application as they said no new connections over 80A regardless. The chap has been very helpful in fairness, but thats the rules.

 

Battery isnt really going to fly as the compressor load is so big. 

 

The reality is, the requirement is infrequent, (its a hobby not a business)  a few days a month max, so a genset to drive it is the most cost effective solution.  Also has the benefit of not needing to lay a new, bigger cable to the workshop. And possibly have it completely stand alone, so no other electrical work required. Leaving the existing 60 amp supply to do "normal" domestic stuff. Though ill still need to step up to 80A if i get a HP as the shower and cooker are both electric at 30A each and occasionally are used at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

11 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Primarily a compressor, which whilst it wont get used every day by any means is going to be 7-10kw affair

Does this run continuously or pressurise a receiver on demand? What are you doing that needs the equivalent of 7kW of compressed air all day?

 

I can't see why it would not be possible to charge a balanced 3 phase battery inverter setup from a single phase. Perhaps bit of a Pfaff but might also be done with a 3 phase solar setup. 

[-rick-]

7 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Does this run continuously or pressurise a receiver on demand? What are you doing that needs the equivalent of 7kW of compressed air all day?

 

I can't see why it would not be possible to charge a balanced 3 phase battery inverter setup from a single phase. Perhaps bit of a Pfaff but might also be done with a 3 phase solar setup. 

 

Has been discussed previously.

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, MrPotts said:

We are spending billions on renewable energy whilst at the same time paying renewable energy companies millions to turn the supply to the grid off whenever the wind is too strong or the sun to bright. This is all added to our energy bills!

This is true, but is a consequence of our grid not habug the right interconnections - it was.set up to supply power from a few concentrations of coal plants in the Midlands and North. Shifting power from thr coast is harder. Sometimes there isn't enough capacity to shift the power 

 

Solutions would be to beef up the grid, including some new lines. 

 

Grid scale battery storage to store the energy locally and then supply it when the generation is low 

 

Local storage (down to house level) will help sooth out peaks on demand but won't help shift the power out of high generation areas. 

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

 

The bit missing here is i also have a workshop with demands as well. 

 

Primarily a compressor, which whilst it wont get used every day by any means is going to be 7-10kw affair. And a load of other much smaller stuff.

 

I didnt make an application as they said no new connections over 80A regardless. The chap has been very helpful in fairness, but thats the rules.

Ok. So the ENA statement that upgrades to support low carbon technologies are free is likely correct. We got a new transformer, 3 poles and 100metres of overhead cable FOC to facilitate solar export

 

Your situation doesn't fall into that category as you want 3 phase for a workshop. Seems to me that power supply isn't a reason for you not to have a heat pump, the workshop load is.

[Dillsue]

22 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Solutions would be to beef up the grid, including some new lines. 

I beleive there's a new DC interconnector planned for the east coast to link Scotland with east anglia?? Similar to the west coast interconnector already in place. 

[Beelbeebub]

2 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

I beleive there's a new DC interconnector planned for the east coast to link Scotland with east anglia?? Similar to the west coast interconnector already in place. 

There are various plans, but they often run into local opposition 

 

I saw one local pressure group against some pylon lines using the "it will take valuable farmland and damage our food security" argument - which is clearly bollocks given the relatively miniscule footprint of pylons. 

 

There are arguments against putting pylons in certain places but they almost always boil down to aesthetics, ie people don't want to see them.

 

That's fair enough, but at least put that argument forward (why should my view be altered for the national good) rather than BS ones. 

[LnP]

I'm as cynical about politicians as the next person, but credit where it's due ...

 

I'm surprised that so far nobody has mentioned that our parliament passed the Climate Change Act in 2008 which requires us to achieve net zero by 2050. They also set up the independent Climate Change Committee to advise and audit our progress. The CCA was cleverly written. Other jurisdictions set targets for particular technologies - e.g. how many GW solar PV by a certain date. The CCA set carbon budgets. The CCC periodically define the carbon budgets and propose pathways to get there. The great thing about this is that, when the CCA was written in 2008, nobody could have imagined how the cost of wind and solar would fall. At that time it was all about nuclear and bio-methane. Bu by setting CO2 budgets, it has allowed parliament to adopt different policies as the landscape has changed.

 

It has been very successful. The CCC recently published their 7th carbon budget. All previous ones have been met. We've halved our CO2 emission since 1990 ... and no it hasn't all been by off-shoring. Carbon emissions from power generation are a fraction of what they were.

 

Cheaper more secure energy, what's not to like?

 

High electricity prices, yes desperately needs sorting, but it's a legacy of the "dash for gas" in the 2000s.

 

Worth reading more here https://www.theccc.org.uk

And listen to Emma Pinchbeck, CEO of the CCC here https://www.cleaningup.live/net-zero-isnt-impossible-its-the-key-to-uk-prosperity-ep202-emma-pinchbeck/

[MikeSharp01]

2 hours ago, -rick- said:

 

Has been discussed previously.

Sorry I missed that - yes I see.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, LnP said:

High electricity prices, yes desperately needs sorting,

But perhaps that is necessary to some extent, to encourage efficiency and lower consumption? But oil and gas prices will no doubt rise and it will balance out.

 

I assume that when production is high and use is low, water is pumped up at Loch Cruachan and the others and batteries are filled.