Is it worth having a gas connection for self build house?

[Wadrian]

Hi everyone

 

we are soon to be starting on our self build re: services connection being one of first tasks. I know the regs are changing re gas heating - boilers etc and the need to have heat pumps installed. With that in mind was wondering if it is still worthwhile having a gas connection to the property?

Edited yesterday at 11:57 by Wadrian

[JohnMo]

Gas connection means a daily standing charge. So if no gas appliances, your just giving money away. 

 

So up to you - around £100 standing charge for gas you aren't using or nothing to pay?

[torre]

With a heat pump for water and heating and being happy with an electric hob (for aesthetics as much as how they cook - we'll miss a giant burner for a wok) we're not bothering with gas. As @JohnMo says, why pay the standing charge and more significantly, why pay the cost of getting a new gas connection in the first place - probably £2k and upwards?

 

If you must have a gas hob then maybe, but I think in an efficient new build property it's hard to make much argument to use gas for heating over an ASHP.

 

[SteamyTea]

Are you thinking of having gas central heating?

Or wondering about resale?

Really comes down to the financial numbers.

[MikeSharp01]

We put the infrastructure in but disconnected the gas and had the meter removed so no standing charge but can be reinstated when Hydrogen is cheaper than air 😅 which will be never so anybody want a 12m length of track pipe? 

[nod]

5 hours ago, Wadrian said:

Hi everyone

 

we are soon to be starting on our self build re: services connection being one of first tasks. I know the regs are changing re gas heating - boilers etc and the need to have heat pumps installed. With that in mind was wondering if it is still worthwhile having a gas connection to the property?

There’s nothing stopping you from installing a gas boiler Cheaper to run than a HP 

Legislation was supposed to faze out gas boilers on new builds by 2024 Which was never going to happen 

I’m not sure what the date is now But it won’t happen More likely to be hydrogen Which still uses mostly  gas 

 

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, nod said:

More likely to be hydrogen

Really.

Unless the oil industry, who are the experts at deep, directional, drilling convince the government of the day that there are unbound, deep, hydrogen reserves, right underneath finite, geological methane reserves, it isn't going to happen.

 

Hydrogen is pretty poor energy carrier, and we would not be burning it anyway, it would pass though 'fool's ells".

[nod]

7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Really.

Unless the oil industry, who are the experts at deep, directional, drilling convince the government of the day that there are unbound, deep, hydrogen reserves, right underneath finite, geological methane reserves, it isn't going to happen.

 

Hydrogen is pretty poor energy carrier, and we would not be burning it anyway, it would pass though 'fool's ells".

[nod]

Just now, nod said:

Most experts seem to agree that a gas boiler installed today Will run its lifetime on gas 

 

Many on here disagreed when I stated back in 2020 that there was zero chance of gas boilers being banned for new builds 

My logic was that none of the heating companies whee preparing for this at the time 

Very few are now 

 

Ive a friend who is a bg gas engineer and he said that the new gas boiler will run 70% gas when or if they do 

Allowing them not to be classed as a gas boiler 

 

Everywhere you go BG are laying and replacing gas mains They must have some reassurance from the powers that be 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, nod said:

Why has this not happened.  Hydrogen was known about before natural gas, probably before town gas.

Electricity has been around for 120 years, mainstream for the last 80.

None of this is new technology/science.

I have not seen anything on the horizon that can electrolyse, process, store and transfer hydrogen cheaper than electricity, or heating diesel for that matter.

 

[JohnMo]

Plus the Scottish government has arrangements in place to start selling it the the Netherlands. Several hydrogen plants are in construction or going through the planning phase, to make use of excess wind power.

 

BG was back in 2020 was starting to replace gas lines suitable for nitrogen. 

 

Watch this space, I'm with @nodon this. It coming even if you don't want it. 

[nod]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Why has this not happened.  Hydrogen was known about before natural gas, probably before town gas.

Electricity has been around for 120 years, mainstream for the last 80.

None of this is new technology/science.

I have not seen anything on the horizon that can electrolyse, process, store and transfer hydrogen cheaper than electricity, or heating diesel for that matter.

 

I didn’t think cost was the issue 

With electricity nearly four times the price of gas You wouldn’t be looking to change anything If we weee looking at this with our financial gat on 

[SteamyTea]

Just now, JohnMo said:

It coming even if you don't want it

I would love it come, but the price is going to be way higher than the public are willing to pay.

At 33 kWh/kg, a kg of hydrogen needs to be around £3 at the point of domestic sale.  Rather optimistic that is.

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Several hydrogen plants are in construction or going through the planning phase

They will close down as, like wave and tidal power, they are relying on government grants (know a couple of people in the marine energy field, they are in and out or work).

[AliG]

Assuming you are having an ASHP then I would not bother.

 

Gas work is expensive, you are probably looking at £2000 to get connected and for pipework. A nice saving.

 

ASHP can now becheaper than gas boilers assuming that you run them on cheap overnight electricity.

 

Hydrogen will not be replacing gas for the average house ever, an ASHP is a better solution in the majority of cases.

 

 

[JohnMo]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

but the price is going to be way higher than the public are willing to pay.

Why, when it's being made with excess renewable electricity that would otherwise be switched off?

 

15 minutes ago, AliG said:

Hydrogen will not be replacing gas for the average house ever, an ASHP is a better solution in the majority of cases.

Not sure we have enough grid capacity to power every home, so not really an option. We need fuel mixes that have low CO2 output.

 

If we are going N2 or gas/N2 mix for gas powered generators (we will have to do this for grid stability), then the same pipes are used to transport that gas then a mix going to residential is an end outcome.

[Mike]

7 hours ago, Wadrian said:

if it is still worthwhile having a gas connection

No.

 

1 hour ago, nod said:

With electricity nearly four times the price of gas

At the moment., but:

1 - As more renewables come on stream & the UK gets more connected with Europe, the electricity price will tend to fall.

2 - As people quit gas the standing charge will rise - it's already happening here in France where heat pumps are already much more common than the UK.

3 - The latest Climate Change Committee report calls for the removal of levies from electricity bills (and onto gas) to make electricity cheaper, which would accelerate item 2, if/when it happens.

 

34 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Why, when it's being made with excess renewable electricity that would otherwise be switched off?

Because:

1. Higher standing charges are on the way - see above.

2. The cost of upgrading the gas grid to take hydrogen will be huge. Pipe pressures will have to be increased to compensate for the difference in molecular weight, needing new pumps, and appliances and network equipment have to be upgraded to stop the smaller hydrogen molecules escaping.

 

Replacing methane with hydrogen is either wishful thinking by the gas & boiler industries or, being more cynical, a deliberate ploy by them to hamper Government decision-making, prolong the use of natural gas and delay electrification.

[JohnMo]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

needing new pumps

Well really compressors, not pumps.

 

But not true, Mol weight of gas will reduce, so should move to another point on the compressor curve, depending on mix ratios. But almost all boost compressors on the grid are gas turbine driven, changing the compressor rpm is also possible to compensate. But a compressor re wheel may be needed, but that's pretty basic in the grand scheme of things. The seals on the compressors are already equipped with dry gas seals, and have a zero emission recovery systems fitted.

 

We already had three pressure stages in the distribution system, high, medium and low, generally low pressure goes into house.

 

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

Replacing methane with hydrogen

Bit black and white, likely to be a mix not straight to hydrogen.

[torre]

It's hard to go much higher than a 20% hydrogen blend as that's what will work with the millions of old gas boilers that will still be around for decades to come.

 

There's only one gas pipe down your street, you can't pipe a richer hydrogen mix down to just the newer boilers because it's not safe to fuel all the older boilers.

 

(Most hydrogen is produced from gas anyway!)

[Mike]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Replacing methane with hydrogen

Bit black and white, likely to be a mix not straight to hydrogen.

AIUI it would be 'easy' to get to a 20% blend, for an estimated 33%^* increase in wholesale cost, but that only cuts domestic CO² generation by 7%^*, which is totally inadequate. The above CCC report targets a a 33% reduction in residential emissions by 2035 and 66% by 2040 (from 2023 levels).

 

^*subject to UK variation - these are estimates for the whole EU from '12 Insights on Hydrogen', Gniewomir Flis & Matthias Deutsch for Agora Energiewende (page 22). An interesting read.

[LnP]

It's telling that the clip @nod shared on the switch to hydrogen is from British Gas. The fossil industries, gas network operators and boiler manufacturers are lobbying hard on this.... naturally, because without it, they're sunk.

 

Consider this, to heat your house by burning green hydrogen will require 5.5 times as much renewable electricity as heating it with a heat pump or twice as much if you heat your house with resistive electrical heating. That's 5.5 times as many wind farms. And as @Mike says, as more people make the switch to electrical heating, the fixed costs of operating the gas network will have to be shared among fewer consumers. For these reasons, hydrogen will be prohibitively expensive.

 

Additionally, the safety issues of having hydrogen in your home are problematic. It has a wider flammable range, is easier to ignite, generates higher overpressures when it explodes and is harder to keep equipment leak tight. Additionally, hydrogen gas hobs release more NOx that natural gas. NOx has been implicated in respiratory diseases. There have been three trials proposed for domestic hydrogen in the UK, Whitby (near Ellesmere Port), Redcar and Fife - notably all disadvantaged areas where consumers might be more attracted by inducements from the vested interests sponsoring the proposed trials - Cadent, Northern Gas Networks, Scottish Gas Networks. Whitby and Redcar have been abandoned largely due to independent academics and engineers stepping in to shine a light on the safety issues and misinformation being provided to the residents.

 

Cadent engaged the engineering company Arup to do the risk assessment for Whitby, to estimate the expected frequency of leaks and explosions. Introducing hydrogen with no additional engineering mitigation measures gave unacceptably high risks, higher than gas. They proposed measures to get the risk down to the same level as gas. They considered this level of risk to be tolerable which is in itself flawed, since legislation here requires risks to be managed to be as low as reasonably practicable - heat pumps are a practicable way to heat your home with less risk of fire and explosion. Some experts challenged other conclusions of the Arup risk assessment.

 

There will be challenges to decarbonising by renewable electrification - grid capacity, curtailment, Dunkelflauten. But solutions are available.

 

There are uses for hydrogen for which, unlike heating, there is no alternative - e.g. making ammonia or methanol and desulphurising fuels in refineries. That's the first priority for green hydrogen.

 

But if science and economics are allowed to prevail over politics and lobbying, we won't be heating our homes with hydrogen. @Wadrian, I don't think you need a gas connection!

 

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

^*subject to UK variation - these are estimates for the whole EU from '12 Insights on Hydrogen', Gniewomir Flis & Matthias Deutsch for Agora Energiewende (page 22). An interesting read.

Actually you can avoid going to page 22 as the 'Key Findings' from the link above say it all - finding 'C' mainly, an image of which is below, and leaves you with the gas pipe answer 'NO' - long term anyway. 

[AliG]

10 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Why, when it's being made with excess renewable electricity that would otherwise be switched off?

 

10 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Not sure we have enough grid capacity to power every home, so not really an option. We need fuel mixes that have low CO2 output.

So you are saying that you both expect there to be excess renewable energy that can be used to make hydrogen and there isn’t enough grid capacity for every home to have an ASHP!

 

Clearly not everyone is installing an ASHP or EV overnight and the grid can quite easily cope with these changes overtime. A considerable amount of research and planning has gone into this.

 

As more renewables are added to the grid then the price of electricity relative to gas will tend to fall. Indeed you can readily buy electricity between midnight and 7am at very close to the price of gas. If you heat your hot water with an ASHP at this time and achieve a large amount of your required space heating it makes running an ASHP now cheaper than gas. This wasn’t the case when I built my house 8 years ago and I have a gas boiler. My parents’ house built 3 years ago does not. 
 

In the very long run you are right that excess renewable energy can be used to make hydrogen cheaply. However running things on hydrogen is inherently expensive and clearly things would run directly on electricity - ASHPs and EVs first and then hydrogen would be used for edge cases where electricity is not a good solution. 

[TerryE]

We have an all-electric house. This was a design decision for our build, and one we've never regretted.  

[nod]

6 hours ago, LnP said:

It's telling that the clip @nod shared on the switch to hydrogen is from British Gas. The fossil industries, gas network operators and boiler manufacturers are lobbying hard on this.... naturally, because without it, they're sunk.

 

Consider this, to heat your house by burning green hydrogen will require 5.5 times as much renewable electricity as heating it with a heat pump or twice as much if you heat your house with resistive electrical heating. That's 5.5 times as many wind farms. And as @Mike says, as more people make the switch to electrical heating, the fixed costs of operating the gas network will have to be shared among fewer consumers. For these reasons, hydrogen will be prohibitively expensive.

 

Additionally, the safety issues of having hydrogen in your home are problematic. It has a wider flammable range, is easier to ignite, generates higher overpressures when it explodes and is harder to keep equipment leak tight. Additionally, hydrogen gas hobs release more NOx that natural gas. NOx has been implicated in respiratory diseases. There have been three trials proposed for domestic hydrogen in the UK, Whitby (near Ellesmere Port), Redcar and Fife - notably all disadvantaged areas where consumers might be more attracted by inducements from the vested interests sponsoring the proposed trials - Cadent, Northern Gas Networks, Scottish Gas Networks. Whitby and Redcar have been abandoned largely due to independent academics and engineers stepping in to shine a light on the safety issues and misinformation being provided to the residents.

 

Cadent engaged the engineering company Arup to do the risk assessment for Whitby, to estimate the expected frequency of leaks and explosions. Introducing hydrogen with no additional engineering mitigation measures gave unacceptably high risks, higher than gas. They proposed measures to get the risk down to the same level as gas. They considered this level of risk to be tolerable which is in itself flawed, since legislation here requires risks to be managed to be as low as reasonably practicable - heat pumps are a practicable way to heat your home with less risk of fire and explosion. Some experts challenged other conclusions of the Arup risk assessment.

 

There will be challenges to decarbonising by renewable electrification - grid capacity, curtailment, Dunkelflauten. But solutions are available.

 

There are uses for hydrogen for which, unlike heating, there is no alternative - e.g. making ammonia or methanol and desulphurising fuels in refineries. That's the first priority for green hydrogen.

 

But if science and economics are allowed to prevail over politics and lobbying, we won't be heating our homes with hydrogen. @Wadrian, I don't think you need a gas connection!

 

 

 

The problem that you have with switching to HPs Is in most homes the the running costs are considerably more than gas and are better suited to UFH 

A friend who has been fitting HPs for 22 years now Says that while electricity tracks gas This will always be the case 

 

I worked on a large estate in Liverpool where the HPs where being fitted free 

New Rads etc and hardly anyone was happy Complaining of high bills and cool Rads while watching Jeremy Kyle 

Not your typical eco warriors But the government needs to be honest 

 

I suspect that a variation of the gas boiler will be with us for decades 

[LnP]

13 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Why, when it's being made with excess renewable electricity that would otherwise be switched off?

Given that hydrogen as an energy carrier is a non starter for the economic and safety reasons mentioned above, there are other ways to deal with curtailment.

 

Interconnectors can solve not only curtailment but also Dunkelflauten. Time of use tariffs will help. Also, the Royal Society recently published a report recommending hydrogen as a means of storing energy  to deal with the ups and downs of renewables - electricity via electrolysers to hydrogen then via fuel cells back to electricity for distribution to consumers - it's expensive though.

 

It's also worth pointing out that, despite the marketing blurb from the gas companies, even green hydrogen has a climate impact. It's very leaky stuff and when released into the atmosphere, has a significant global warming potential. Grey hydrogen (produced by reforming natural gas) even with carbon capture and storage (CCS) is also no climate angel. Natural gas extraction and distribution leaks methane (a global warmer), the reforming process creates CO₂ , the CCS process has a parasitic energy requirement, is expensive and doesn't capture all the CO₂ .

 

It will be a sad day for the climate, for our bank accounts and for our safety if we start burning hydrogen to heat our homes.