Contesting final invoice - please help!

[Tom]

Hi all. I really need some advice here if I can impose on the hive-mind again.

So, our main contractor has issued their final invoice which I have contested as there are a jobs the plumber has yet to finish. They have agreed to withhold 1.5k until this work is done which is good, but there are also a few items on the invoice which I should just not be liable for which I want to contest too, one of these is being charged for the replacement of damaged kitchen cabinet doors that their worker damaged. I have yet to raise this point with the contractor, as I just want them to come back and finish the plumbing work, but if I pay their final invoice - less the amount being withheld for plumbing - am I deemed to have "paid" for the damaged kitchen doors and will therefore have no grounds to contest this later? 

Thanks all

[Pocster]

I’d certainly withhold the replacement door costs . Withholding gives you leverage , once you’ve paid and argue - getting a refund going to be very tricky .

If they damaged the doors there’s no issue that they should pay for replacements .

If they object - tell them to take you to small claims court .

Edited February 6 by Pocster

[Tom]

Thanks @Pocster . I am essentially withholding 1.5k (for the plumbing work) which would cover the replacement door cost etc, but I just don't know if paying an invoice that includes the replacement door costs now, precludes me from challenging this later? 

[ProDave]

16 minutes ago, Tom said:

but there are also a few items on the invoice which I should just not be liable for which I want to contest too, one of these is being charged for the replacement of damaged kitchen cabinet doors that their worker damaged. I have yet to raise this point with the contractor, as I just want them to come back and finish the plumbing work, but if I pay their final invoice - less the amount being withheld for plumbing - am I deemed to have "paid" for the damaged kitchen doors and will therefore have no grounds to contest this later? 

Contact them NOW and raise the kitchen door issue.  Make it clear you are happy to pay the bulk of the invoice but you think this part is unfair.

 

If they don't even know about the issue, then how do you expect them to deal with it?

[Tom]

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Contact them NOW and raise the kitchen door issue.  Make it clear you are happy to pay the bulk of the invoice but you think this part is unfair.

 

If they don't even know about the issue, then how do you expect them to deal with it?

 

I've got significant concerns that, based on their previous behaviour, that if I raise further concerns with the invoice now they will just refuse to come back at all to complete the plumbing work. If I withhold the 1.5k as agreed, pay the rest, and they come back and complete the work then that puts me in a far stronger negotiating position. But would I be deemed to have "paid" for the doors already? 

[ProDave]

While you have a substantial payment due, you hold a lot of cards.  Get the negotiation done now about the snags.  Once you only have a small payment due, then they have less incentive to dome back.

 

List all the snags, like the oustanding plumbing work, kitchen doors and ANY other aspect of the job that is still pending or substandard.  Ask for a site meeting to discuss this.

[saveasteading]

You withold the plumbing fund, as it is not done.

You withold the kitchen repair value.

You withold any other sums appropriate to odds and ends (snagging) unless there is a retention sum in the contract.

You pay the rest, assuming completely happy.

You tell them in writing that you are paying x and witholding y and z, and why.

It's common for a business to invoice immediately. Ie might not be a try-on.

It's standard for customers to agree and pay with appropriate money held back.

In writing, courteously but firmly.

[Pocster]

Withhold as much as is reasonable for repairs / damage / outstanding work .

Put in an email to them . 1st email is always nice 😊

Wait , judge what to do on their response .

Some companies ‘listen’ some don’t …

[Kelvin]

You pay them there’s a high likelihood they won’t come back so you don’t pay them. 
 

Can you prove their guy damaged the doors? If not, they might, not unreasonably, how do we know you didn’t damage them. You really ought to have raised this immediately after the damage was done. 

[ToughButterCup]

Talk first.

Listen.

Pay based on the listening exercise.

 

Its not easy to hold that kind of conversation, which is why most people try to avoid it. (And why many contractors and customers  don't answer their phones) Not talking  makes  the problem worse. If you don't talk first - the whole thing risks escalating out of all proportion.  If (say) this issue gets worse still and lawyers get involved the first question they will ask is - did you talk to the contractor first?  By the time things get to paper, nobody should be surprised.

 

When things go wrong  its ALWAYS a first class opportunity to show some character. Or guts if you like.....

 

Here's a framework to help you think it through for yourself.  Its a ten minute read.

 

 

 

[Tom]

Thanks all. The amount I'm withholding for the plumbing work would cover the damage to the doors and other items.

 

So, the way I see it there are four possible scenarios:

 

- withhold 1.5k as agreed now, final plumbing work completed, contractor asks for final 1.5k to be paid at which point I say that the cost for the doors should be taken out of this etc. We agree on a figure and walk off in to the sunset happy: unlikely 

 

- withhold 1.5k as agreed now, final plumbing work completed, contractor asks for final 1.5k to be paid at which point I say that the cost for the doors should be taken out of this etc. He disagrees but as all other work completed I'm in a comfortable bargaining position: likely

 

- raise the issue of the damaged doors now, agree additional money to be retained by me until rectified: very unlikely

 

- raise the issue of the damaged doors now, contractor kicks up a fuss and says that no plumbing work will be done until I pay the invoice. My bargaining position is weaker as I still need the plumbing work finished: likely

 

 

The question is whether to raise the damaged door issue now, and risk the plumbing work not being done, or later after the plumbing work has been done but when less money (though still sufficient to cover costs) is owed. And, if by paying the invoice less the "plumbing" retention of 1.5k I have in effect paid for and accepted liability for the doors?

[Pocster]

Have you got absolute fact / proof they damaged the doors ?

[Canski]

2 minutes ago, Pocster said:

Have you got absolute fact / proof they damaged the doors ?

and what is the cost of the door replacement ?

[Tom]

6 minutes ago, Pocster said:

Have you got absolute fact / proof they damaged the doors ?

yep

 

4 minutes ago, Canski said:

and what is the cost of the door replacement ?

~£500 

[saveasteading]

It doesn't sound as if you get on well with them. 

It shouldn't be a win/ lose situation.

You are not bargaining, you are being fair and reasonable.

But if that's the way you or they see it, then trust may not be an option.

My advice stands, but to your message add that you have proof they damaged the door.

If you never see them again, you have the money for the works remaining. Is that for the best?

[nod]

I would try speaking to them first 

 

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, nod said:

I would try speaking to them first 

I agree. Perhaps I'm wrongly assuming  that they aren't talking.

[Tom]

Thanks both. I am speaking on the phone though, and we have agreed to the 1.5k retention. The question is whether to speak to them specifically about the kitchen doors now, or wait until the plumbing has been completed.

[nod]

20 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I agree. Perhaps I'm wrongly assuming  that they aren't talking.

Sorry for the short answer 

I tend to look at the forum while I’m on the move 

 

why I say talk to him 

I’ve a lady that does all my invoicing 

She would tell me that she can see two doors supplied to Tom No one told her that OUR numb nuts apprentice damaged them 

Or he’s simply forgotten 

Either way I’d deal with it now 

and not take off the retention 

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, Tom said:

to speak to them specifically about the kitchen doors now,

yes, do it now. They might suddenly be able to do it tomorrow, if the door is a stock item.

Or you agree to hold that sum too. And pay the rest.

[Tom]

Hi all, the saga with this invoice continues.

So, as a recap, the contractor has agreed a retention to cover work still outstanding and are now saying the invoice (less the retention agreed) is due to be paid. As above, I wanted to raise the issue of the damaged kitchen doors and a few other items on the invoice that I shouldn't be liable for. So:

 

- I suggested a call last week to discuss the invoice

- they declined, saying they will not speak on the phone, insisting everything is via email

- I emailed detailing my queries re the items on the invoice that I believe I shouldn't be liable for 

- they responded saying they aren't getting in to a "tit for tat" and that the invoice is now due

- I responded, again reiterating my position re the items I shouldn't be liable for

- no response from them and now their self-imposed deadline of today to pay the invoice has arrived  

 

From a legal point of view, where do I stand do you think? I'm not paying an invoice that includes items that I don't believe I should pay for. Should I reply again and suggest I pay for everything else but these, so as to give more time to come to agreement about the rest? Does the deadline imposed by the contractor to pay the invoice actually mean anything- especially if I am contesting the invoice? It seems a completely random deadline pulled out of thin air to simply pressure me.

 

[saveasteading]

Don't 'suggest' or barter. Pay them what you think is fair and leaves you enough to complete the work. This can be a little high to allow for unknowns.

Eg what if the door is discontinued? Change them all?

Put it all in writing. Not as a take it or leave it offer, but actually pay.

I am paying the sum of £x, withholding y for the door and z for the plumbing and zz as a contingency*.

The retention will be released within a week of your completing the work.

Any legal attempt by them would then be futile. A lawyer would tell them not to be silly. 

As long as you are being reasonable, they will not prevail.

 

* slightly concerned as to why they haven't done it. Is there some problem? Is the retention  enough to get a new and willing  plumber in? 

[Mr Punter]

Just pay what you think is due and explain why.  Depending on the contract, you may need to serve a Pay Less Notice, which is a simple document that you can download free.

[Tom]

Thanks both. I was unaware of a Pay Less Notice. I don't actually have a signed contract with these people, if that makes a difference - shall I send a Pay Less Notice anyway?

 

 

[Mr Punter]

I think yes to the Pay Less Notice as it is a formal method of recording what you have done and accords with RICS, JCT, NEC type contracts.  If this goes to Court or adjudication you will be seen to have followed best practice.