Sunamp failure - NOW FIXED!

[Mr Punter]

39 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Its replacement was a car that had been in production for three years

 

What was the make and model?

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

 

What was the make and model?

 

 

It was a  December 2020 Jaguar I-Pace HSE.  Far from being an efficient EV, but reasonable performance from 400hp and AWD, if not quite up there with the Model 3 LR AWD.  Very comfortable and extremely reliable, as well as seeming to be completely free from software bugs (something of a rarity in modern cars!).

 

I replaced the I-Pace in June last year with a Mercedes EQA Premium +.  Smaller than the I-Pace and better suited to the roads around here, and a lot lower performance.  It is pretty efficient though, massively more so than the I-Pace.  My only minor gripe is that the software isn't as intuitive as it could be, although it announced it was updating just as I got home last night, so I've not yet had time to experience whatever may have been changed.

[Barney12]

9 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

It was a  December 2020 Jaguar I-Pace HSE

The HUGE advantage of the I-Pace is that it’s not built by JLR ! 😁

[Jeremy Harris]

5 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

The HUGE advantage of the I-Pace is that it’s not built by JLR ! 😁

 

 

Absolutely!  Made in Austria by Magna Steyr and it showed in every single detail.  The build quality was absolutely superb, markedly better than the Mercedes I have now.  It was a complex car though, both the electrical stuff and things like the air suspension and other electric widgets, so after owning it for three and a bit years and paying for the extended warranty, I kept worrying it would have some major failure not covered by the warranty, so sold it.

 

The cost of EV repairs can be eye-wateringly high, so running one outside the warranty period carries a potential write-off risk on the basis of cost if something serious fails.

[Kelvin]

We have an Ioniq 5. I wouldn’t run it outside of a warranty. 

[Pocster]

Car people - just lease 

[Jeremy Harris]

One slight problem has appeared (only spotted when @SteamyTea called around earlier  - thanks, now fixed!) in that a crimped on type elbow (the ones that need the expensive machine to fit) developed a very slow weep.  It was dripping at a rate of about one drip every ten to fifteen minutes.  Struck me as being odd, as everything I've read/watched on YouTube about these crimped fittings has been very positive.  I really did not expect to find one with a slight leak.

 

Anyway, ten minute job to fix, as I had some spare 22mm pipe and a couple of compression elbows, so all is sorted now.  This wasn't Sunamp's fault in any way, my guess is that it was just one of those things.  I cut away the neoprene (whilst Steamy Tea was here) and I can't see anything wrong with the crimped fitting (that may be the wrong term, but hey ho, I'm not a plumber!).  Any views on this type of fitting, @Nickfromwales?  Am I mistaken in thinking they are normally very reliable?  I know that it's far too easy to get mislead by social media stuff, especially YouTube, but I've not seen anything negative about these fittings, TBH, so suspect we've just been unlucky.

 

Whilst I had the water off I've added a tee and two 22m ball valves, one on the Sunamp output, the other off the tee, with a stop end for now.  The plan is to fit the small wall mounted UVC some time in the next few weeks, as a backup source of hot water.    If we need to switch over hot water sources then it's just a matter of closing the Sunamp valve, opening the alternative source valve and switching  a rotary changeover switch from the Sunamp to the back up.  If we never need to use it that will be great, but it will give us peace of mind that we have an alternative that we can very quickly switch over too if we really need to. 

 

What's even better about this is that with just a 2kW immersion the backup can be fully heated in under two hours from the battery system, as we pretty much always have at least 7 or 8kWh of spare energy available even on a dull day.  The price looks very reasonable, too, even including the labour cost from the local plumber (who's becoming my new best mate, he really deserves to get on with his positive approach - like a breath of fresh air given my recent experience with a rip-off merchant).

 

Hope you got home OK after your marathon trip today, @SteamyTea.  Makes me glad that we no longer live down in your neck of the woods, with that long haul just to get out of the county.

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Struck me as being odd, as everything I've read/watched on YouTube about these crimped fittings has been very positive. 

 

😂 I've seen hundreds "let go".

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

when @SteamyTea called around earlier

Just got back to Penzance for a coffee and then a kebab.

Was good to see you.

Going to send you a PM in a sec as there was something totally unrelated I meant to ask you.

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, Onoff said:

 

😂 I've seen hundreds "let go".

 

 

Many thanks!

 

That just goes to show how easy it is to be mislead by stuff on the internet!  I suppose the reason people are promoting these things so heavily is because they are quick and easy to use, then, so they save a lot of time on a job.  That figures, but it is depressing, all the same.  I'd like to think that people who promote stuff like this are honest, but I guess honesty is just another commodity to be bought and sold. . .

[Kelvin]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

One slight problem has appeared (only spotted when @SteamyTea called around earlier  - thanks, now fixed!) in that a crimped on type elbow (the ones that need the expensive machine to fit) developed a very slow weep.  It was dripping at a rate of about one drip every ten to fifteen minutes.  Struck me as being odd, as everything I've read/watched on YouTube about these crimped fittings has been very positive.  I really did not expect to find one with a slight leak.

 

 

I’ve had one weep like that too. Same rate. I have a few of these crimped elbows but fortunately all in accessible and visible places. 

[Jeremy Harris]

14 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

I’ve had one weep like that too. Same rate. I have a few of these crimped elbows but fortunately all in accessible and visible places. 

 

 

It's now replaced with a compression fitting (can't use a soldered one as it's too close to the Sunamp).  TBH I struggle to see any benefit from these crimp on fittings, other than speed of assembly.  They seem to have the same downsides as pushfit, in that they rely on an O ring to seal,  with the added issue that the crimp bit can distort the O ring sealing area (which is I think what happened here).  They are a PITA to get off, too.  I had to use a pipe slice around the crimped part to get that off, then gently use snips to peel off the bit with the O ring (as I didn't want to make the pipe any shorter).  Luckily the slightly dinged end of the pipe is well away from the olive in the new fitting, so no risk of that not sealing, but it wouldn't be possible to get one of these off like this and re-use the pipe with a Yorkshire or end fed, due to the dings.

 

In applications like this, where you can't use heat and need a bit of adjustment  so there's no stress on the pipes it seems to me to be hard to beat an old fashioned compression fitting.  They are pretty forgiving and best of all can be disassembled quickly and re-used.  Not sure if there is much of a price difference, either.

[Kelvin]

I had the same problem getting it off. I’ve used compression fittings in the garage plumbing. 
 

 

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Any views on this type of fitting, @Nickfromwales?  Am I mistaken in thinking they are normally very reliable? 

My go-to ASHP guys used these (2 different companies / installers) and on both jobs there has not been a 100% success rate, but to be fair this can be said of any soldered joint or compression joint; the big difference is when the bastard requires a huge effort and chopping out of a lot of the local pipe etc to change it which winds me up. Even a failed soldered joint can be successfully re-sweated in situ in most instances, and compressions can be removed, olive changed, sorted fast and that happens without touching anything more than a spanner.

Not an issue for me as the companies both returned swiftly and made good where it was critical to do so, at their cost, but if it is a compression joint then it just needs a pinch up.

Press-fit is used everywhere these days, because of its speed of installation and its relative simplicity, but nothings going to be documented here that is 100% guaranteed leak / bomb-proof as mostly it's either a manufacture defect or installer error that produces a failed joint, and that's never going away regardless of the system or product types; just called "life".

The reason I stick to compression / brass / copper in all plant installations is that it has never really let me down, but I am very attentive in my workmanship (for good reason) as I would have to travel a considerable distance to facilitate a service call for such a failure which would sap a lot of the profit made from the job.....hence I try and fill & test when I am at the hotel and make sure I am back again the next day doing X/Y/Z meaning I am able to observe the plumbing to check for leaks before packing up and heading home.

 

It doesn't always work, such is life, so one weeping fitting is not the end of the world in actuality, and you could have called the chaps back on warranty to do the repair for free? Was probably your nature to take the path of simplicity and speed, eg do the bloody thing yourself as it's quicker and easier, and you have the skills.

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm sure I could have called them back, but the guy drove down here from Nuneaton and frankly there is no way I could live with asking someone to do a 5 or 6 hour round trip for a ten minute fix I could do myself.  As you say, I'm sure it was just one of those things, there was not the slightest indication of poor workmanship that I could see. 

 

The really massive PITA with these things is that they just cannot be quickly sorted if they do weep.   A few seconds nipping up a slight weep on a compression fitting is a quick and easy fix.  Battling to cut off and replace one of these press fit fitting is both a pain and time consuming, as well as carrying the risk of damage to the pipe.  If they were easier to get off and replace then maybe they might be OK, but as they stand I'm not going to give them houseroom in future.

[Russdl]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

local plumber (who's becoming my new best mate

 

(thread drift)

 

Would your new best mate travel to Salisbury? It's difficult finding a decent plumber.

 

Come the warmer weather I want to re plumb my two Willis heaters from a parallel to a series layout, I was going to have a bash myself but if there's a good plumber nearby then that would be preferable. 

[Onoff]

52 minutes ago, Russdl said:

 

(thread drift)

 

Would your new best mate travel to Salisbury? It's difficult finding a decent plumber.

 

Come the warmer weather I want to re plumb my two Willis heaters from a parallel to a series layout, I was going to have a bash myself but if there's a good plumber nearby then that would be preferable. 

 

Why? There's good reason why they're plumbed in parallel. 

[Russdl]

I'll start a new thread...

[Jeremy Harris]

3 hours ago, Russdl said:

 

(thread drift)

 

Would your new best mate travel to Salisbury? It's difficult finding a decent plumber.

 

Come the warmer weather I want to re plumb my two Willis heaters from a parallel to a series layout, I was going to have a bash myself but if there's a good plumber nearby then that would be preferable. 

 

 

I will ask, I need to call him as soon as I'm ready to get the standby water heater sorted.

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

Why? There's good reason why they're plumbed in parallel. 

Indeed, but he’s a grown man so just let him carry on about his business please, I’m sure it’ll be fine.

[Mike]

On 18/01/2025 at 09:51, Jeremy Harris said:

One of the slimline wall mounted UVCs I've been looking at is slimline because internally it has two smaller diameter cylinders mounted side by side inside a rectangular case....

 

Most of the Sunamp installation photos I've seen online don't seem to be in particularly space sensitive locations.  If I had to guess I'd say that height may well be the most critical dimension for many...

Yes, height is certainly important on my current (apartment) renovation, as there is nowhere to hide the unit except a wardrobe. The SunAmp, with its side pipe connections, is perfect for that as there's still space above to hang clothes.

 

Before deciding on SunAmp (not that it's purchased yet) I spent a long time looking for compact alternatives, and also came across some modular cylinders: the Teccontrol Twido, Viessman CEI (perhaps a rebranded Twido, but now seemingly discontinued) and the Ariston Velis Evo; if you've found another, I'd be interested. I've also taken a look at various flat single-tank units.

 

The problem is that none of them are as low as the SunAamp, and all (except the Twido) require extra height for pipe connections and/or service space at the bottom - so the installed height is greater and vital wardrobe hanging space would be reduced or eliminated.

[DamonHD]

For us the Thermino was able to fit under the then extant combi, but hold ~2 days' heat.

 

https://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-solar-DHW-for-16WW-UniQ-and-PV-diversion.html#2022-03-09

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Yes, height is certainly important on my current (apartment) renovation, as there is nowhere to hide the unit except a wardrobe. The SunAmp, with its side pipe connections, is perfect for that as there's still space above to hang clothes.

 

Before deciding on SunAmp (not that it's purchased yet) I spent a long time looking for compact alternatives, and also came across some modular cylinders: the Teccontrol Twido, Viessman CEI (perhaps a rebranded Twido, but now seemingly discontinued) and the Ariston Velis Evo; if you've found another, I'd be interested. I've also taken a look at various flat single-tank units.

 

The problem is that none of them are as low as the SunAamp, and all (except the Twido) require extra height for pipe connections and/or service space at the bottom - so the installed height is greater and vital wardrobe hanging space would be reduced or eliminated.

Is there 3 phase available there?

The 27kw Stiebel Eltron instant water heater is just absolutely amazing. Its water production is that of a good combi boiler, I was super-impressed by this.

 

If you can convert the supply and fit cost of the Sunamp / Thermino (prob north of £8k installed with electrics and plumbing, including the new D1/2 PRV discharge waste requirements etc) and buy one of those instead, for IIRC sub £600, then use the change to get a 3ph feed to it, that would serve you well, and it’s the size of a larger, taller shoebox!.

 

 

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/stiebel-eltron-dhb-e-27-203865-set-three-phase-touch-instantaneous-water-heater-3i-technology?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_r406R6I3CsDg1Re8V-Esxh4jxz&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4rK8BhD7ARIsAFe5LXIpAgmiAiYnFIbawprfNVfL4unFAqqJbdCD4n9dl7E5-UGEgCIJ2KoaAv4wEALw_wcB

[Nickfromwales]

Can’t you fit a 15/20/30l water heater under the kitchen sink, and do an electric shower? Is there a bath to fill?

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Is there 3 phase available there?

The 27kw Stiebel Eltron instant water heater is just absolutely amazing. Its water production is that of a good combi boiler, I was super-impressed by this.

If only! I'd need to pay to upgrade the supply for the entire building to get that!

 

The heater would be great solution, but I only have a 45A single phase supply and already need a load-shedder to switch out non-essential loads if the kitchen is in full use...