What next for heat pumps after BUS and MCS?

[MikeSharp01]

6 hours ago, gravelld said:

Persimmon guy who employs thousands and donates to The Party

Not the current party they don't - might be a window there but perhaps not. The trouble is if we all stay quiet then for sure nothing happens and you should never underestimate a bunch of committed individuals should you.

[Mike]

15 hours ago, North80 said:

[in France] They install a lot of air-to-air heat pumps and hardly any air-to-water ones.

About 28% air-to-water last time I looked (175,000 air-to-water in 2019, up from 90,000 the year before) - https://mcsfoundation.org.uk/news/new-report-france-cuts-heating-emissions-ten-times-faster-than-uk-with-heat-pump-roll-out/

 

That may well have changed since gas boiler were banned for new build 3 years ago.

Edited January 11 by Mike

[gravelld]

1 hour ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Not the current party they don't - might be a window there but perhaps not. The trouble is if we all stay quiet then for sure nothing happens and you should never underestimate a bunch of committed individuals should you.

I meant that as a specific example - it might have affected the previous administration. The current one might be affected by unions, for example.

 

Don't want to sound like a downer, just repeating what I've observed. I'd like to think you're right.

[Roger440]

On 11/01/2025 at 15:58, MikeSharp01 said:

Not the current party they don't - might be a window there but perhaps not. The trouble is if we all stay quiet then for sure nothing happens and you should never underestimate a bunch of committed individuals should you.

 

Id not make that assumption.

 

The new crowd are just as bad as the old crowd. Companies will lobby whoever is in power, that may or may not include donations or other incentives.

 

Either way, what gravelld says is essentially correct. There no room for facts. Only money

[Roger440]

For all the suggestions, it still comes back to the fact that our electricity costs are way to high. Unlike most of europe, or the USA.

 

Its always going to be an uphill struggle to convert users to a more expensive energy source.

 

We all know the main reason why, ie the pegged price. But that isnt going to change. Primarily related to reasons in my post above. Money.

 

Being in wales, when my income drops far enough, i can sign up to the scheme for £45k of work to insulate and install ASHP all at the taxpayers expense. Its more cost effective to cease work, and cease paying tax, which is precisely what i will do. Its a mad world. Im sure england will follow with some similar madcap idea. My best advice is wait it out until it gets more generous. As it must.

[saveasteading]

5 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

electricity costs are way to high. Unlike most of europe, or the USA.

Not exactly  so.

[Roger440]

14 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Not exactly  so.

 

Interesting. 10 mins on google gives you so many different versions including those that show us at the top. Seems quoting a cost per kWh is complicated?

 

Never mind, doesnt change the fact its too expensive, and its expense prevents switching to it. That point still stands. And it "could" be cheaper, but isnt. By government choice.

 

 

[Omnibuswoman]

On 11/01/2025 at 15:58, MikeSharp01 said:

Not the current party they don't - might be a window there but perhaps not.

I remember the last time this lot were in, and the Future Homes standard was put into legislation, raising air tightness and insulation standards for new houses, with a 7 year lead-in time for the house building industry to adapt. Due to commence in 2015, Cameron’s govt scrapped it just before it was due to start. Presumably due to some effective lobbying from

men in sharp suits on behalf of the house building industry… imagine - 10 years of houses built to a standard of efficiency that would be instantly suitable for heat pump based heating.
 

What a political disgrace that we are a decade down the line, and no further forward. 

[MikeSharp01]

Bring in the future homes standard immediately, allow the house builders to avoid doing it and quadruple the CIL levy if they do. The problem with be that house building will slow up as they can no long just throw them up so that impacts the completion targets - these feedback loops are a pain.

[Mike]

4 hours ago, Omnibuswoman said:

I remember the last time this lot were in, and the Future Homes standard was put into legislation, raising air tightness and insulation standards for new houses, with a 7 year lead-in time for the house building industry to adapt

In 2006 I was involved in a couple of very interesting cross-industry events on the Blair Government's proposals for Zero Carbon Housing; the Pre-Budget Report that year announced their ‘ambition’ that all new homes should be zero carbon within a decade. The announcement was a big surprise, but it gathered quite a lot of momentum and seemed possible that it might actually get adopted as policy.

 

Difficult to believe that was almost 20 years ago and that so little progress had been made.

[joth]

On 07/01/2025 at 14:21, joth said:

So as a first step, how about making gas disconnection free, and allow domestic properties to opt into electricity price subsidy for  any house that removes gas? i.e. whatever costs savings they would be having via their gas bill could be received in electricity prices instead.

Looks like the ministers heard me!

 

Sort of.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b0a9eb3e-38f8-4fc4-8a60-72a12142244f

 

UK ministers consider electricity bill discounts for heat pump owners

Households replacing gas boilers may not have to pay green levies on power costs

 

I think it would be crazy to key the discount on presence of a heat pump and/or absence of a gas boiler, which needs surveying and monitoring, rather than simply "does this property have an active gas supply", which can be done with a simple grep on a central database. But hey, ministers must create 2 new bureaucratic hurdles for each one they remove 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5 by joth

[scottishjohn]

Idon,t know what you are all worring about 

we have all the politicians telling us electricity is going to be cheaper with building more wind  and solar farms

 

and if you believe that you will also belive labour are going to "smash the gangs"

 and stop the boats 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

and if you believe that you will also belive labour are going to "smash the gangs"

 and stop the boats

Here are some figures for you.

Seems your Tory mates were not brilliant either 

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

[MikeSharp01]

On 05/06/2025 at 07:52, joth said:

think it would be crazy to key the discount on presence of a heat pump and/or absence of a gas boiler, which needs surveying and monitoring, rather than simply "does this property have an active gas supply", which can be done with a simple grep on a central database. But hey, ministers must create 2 new bureaucratic hurdles for each one they remove 

 

Yes but what about the households where there is neither a gas supply or a heatpump. EG here we are on LPG I doubt that is on a central dB. To be fair we are on a 1200l tank but other neighbours are on bottles. Overall I like the idea of not paying the green levies if you have invested in a heat pump and have disconnected the gas. An alternative might be to move all the green levies for domestic  consumers onto gas but although his has been discussed the inherent unfairness in this approach might make it challenging to implement. The essential problem is that almost anyone can have a gas boiler installed almost no matter what sort of dwelling they are in, assuming mains gas is in the street and there are many places that cannot have a heat pump. 

[SteamyTea]

On 05/06/2025 at 06:52, joth said:

think it would be crazy to key the discount on presence of a heat pump and/or absence of a gas boiler, which needs surveying and monitoring

 

46 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Yes but what about the households where there is neither a gas supply or a heatpump. EG here we are on LPG I doubt that is on a central dB

Why not just tax combustible fuels more.

 

It really is about time that governments and the public grew up and accepted that taxation, which pays for public services and solves market failures, is part of grown up life.  Claiming that it is just governments fleecing 'the ordinary working family' is just childish and naive.

 

Edited Sunday at 18:45 by SteamyTea

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

you will also belive labour are going to

Could we avoid party politics on BH please, unless relevant to construction.

[LnP]

17 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Why not just tax combustible fuels more.

 

It really is about time that governments and the public grew up and accepted that taxation, which pays for public services and solves market failures, is part of grown up life.  Claiming that it is just governments fleecing 'the ordinary working family' is just childish and naive.

 

Most economists would agree with you, that a carbon tax would be the most efficient way to incentivise decarbonisation. But we would need strong leadership and political consensus for it to be accepted. Canada had one but there were lots of exemptions. It was unpopular. One of the first things Mark Carney did when he became prime minister in March was to abolish it.

 

We do have an emissions trading scheme though, which requires industrial carbon emitters to surrender carbon credits. It's a carbon tax on natural gas and coal electricity generation ... but ironically, since we have a marginal cost pricing system for electricity, this increases the price we pay for all our electricity, including renewables ... which disincentivises heat pumps! Domestic gas boilers are outside the emissions trading scheme.

[scottishjohn]

21 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Here are some figures for you.

Seems your Tory mates were not brilliant either 

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

what makes you think I,m a tory 

itar them all with the same brush

[Roger440]

20 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Why not just tax combustible fuels more.

 

It really is about time that governments and the public grew up and accepted that taxation, which pays for public services and solves market failures, is part of grown up life.  Claiming that it is just governments fleecing 'the ordinary working family' is just childish and naive.

 

Paying tax is fine if it's used for the good of society. Sadly. That's too, a significant extent, no longer the case. I am therefore be fleeced or whatever other term you wish to use.

 

As for taxing still more, fortunately I don't think any government of any colour are quite stupid enough to do that. All it will do is make poor people poorer (and colder). Those people simply don't have the capital to move to a heat pump. No matter how cheap electricity is. Fortunately for us, most people don't want to punish there fellow man. It will be a very sad day if that ever comes to pass. I find it sad the people want to do this.

[SteamyTea]

45 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Paying tax is fine if it's used for the good of society

I think it generally is.

Look at the really big government spends, health, education, defense and transport.

We would be (expletive deleted)ed without them, yet many people think that they are wasteful.

 

It is very easy to look at one or two incidences, take HS2 for example, and think that all government projects are managed as badly.

We tend not to hear about the successes.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

what makes you think I,m a tory 

itar them all with the same brush

Your small business background and your comments about immigration and government waste.

[Roger440]

35 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I think it generally is.

Look at the really big government spends, health, education, defense and transport.

We would be (expletive deleted)ed without them, yet many people think that they are wasteful.

 

It is very easy to look at one or two incidences, take HS2 for example, and think that all government projects are managed as badly.

We tend not to hear about the successes.

I'd beg to differ. Highest taxes ever, and the least to show for it. I'd say it generally isn't. It's completely out of control.

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

I'd say it generally isn't. It's completely out of control

Have you got some examples.

Generally, once inflation, higher standards, better outcomes etc are taken into account, there is not much difference.

 

While I agree that a lot of government decisions are poor, from my viewpoint, they may be good from others.

[Roger440]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

Have you got some examples.

Generally, once inflation, higher standards, better outcomes etc are taken into account, there is not much difference.

 

While I agree that a lot of government decisions are poor, from my viewpoint, they may be good from others.

Loads. So many it would take forever. How does 1.8 million for three slow down ramps sound?

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

Loads. So many it would take forever. How does 1.8 million for three slow down ramps sound?

Where?