Thoughts on warranty claim for a defective roof

[Paene Finitur]

Hi All, I'm seriously considering my options, including making a warranty claim for a substandard roof in our 2 year old self-build. Just wanted to hear anyone's views on it.

 

The project was run by a project manager who work closely with a local structural design company. The roof consists of hand made clay tiles and was fitted by a local roofer with decades of experience. All has been fine except for one section where we have had problems of water going behind the guttering and soaking the eaves and exposed rafter feet, which are now showing signs of damp damage.

 

We have of course, had the roofer back on several occasions to look at the issue and he has done some work to remedy the problem, but to no avail. He's also not the easiest or most reliable person, in terms of keeping appointments so this has been over an extended period.

 

Over the last few months, I finally lost my patience and did what I should have done a lot earlier; I did a lot of my own research and asked around the roofing trade online for some opinions. In particular, I got some great help from a local roofing supplier who stated straight away that he felt that the tiles are at too low a pitch on this part of the roof - these tiles should be no less than 35 degrees (in this part of the roof they are laid at around 25 degrees). He stated that the max pitch should be on the plans but I've not spotted them anywhere. He also gave me the name of another local roofer who I intend to ask to visit, give a professional opinion and quote for repair work. I am not expecting this to be cheap.

 

Without mentioning my investigations, I also suggested to the original roofer that the pitch looks too shallow for hand made clay tiles, and that I'd have expected him to spot this. He replied that he didn't think that was the issue but in any case, the calculations were done by the project manager, not him. I should add that I had to let the project manager go since he made numerous costly mistakes, failed to bring the project in anywhere near on time or to budget and was absent for large periods without any explanation.

 

I'm just wondering where all this leaves me. I am unlikely to get anything from either the roofer or the project manager without a costly fight - despite this problem likely being due to their actions/mistakes. That said, if it does prove expensive, I feel I will have to document a case to LABC - the warranty provider - and try to make a claim. Any thoughts or experiences you can share would be very much appreciated, as it's the first time I've considered going down this route.

 

Edited Monday at 12:15 by Paene Finitur

[joe90]

22 minutes ago, Paene Finitur said:

Now, the roofing supplier stated that the max pitch should be on the plans but I've not spotted them anywhere.

I think you mean minimum pitch. 
 

The minimum roof pitch for handmade clay tiles is usually 35°, but it can vary depending on the type of tile: 

 

personally (from the photos) the problem only exists at the far left side and I notice that the felt tray (plastic sticking out into the guttering) is short of the roof, it should continue further left to the edge of the tiles. Also I think  the guttering is a bit short, if it were a couple of inches longer it would catch water off that lead which I don’t believe it’s doing at the moment. If it were me I would angle grind into the mortar between tiles at the far left and insert a short length of eaves tray right up to the edge of the tiles, also I would extend the guttering a few inches longer . If you don’t want to do this get your roofer to do it, far cheaper than getting into claims (and best of luck claiming of NHBC).

 

minimum slope is to stop wind driven rain being blown back under the tiles but the felt/membrane and eaves tray should still catch this. 

Edited Monday at 12:27 by joe90

[nod]

I agree with your roofer The pitch isn’t anything to do with this problem 

In any case It’s not his responsibility to decide on the correct tile for the pitch Unless he specified this particular tile 

But he has cut the tray to short It should finish inline with the roof and I would have run the gutter further also 

This done would more than likely sort the problem out 

NHBC like most warrantee companies hardly ever pay out and insist on a bond before coming out But won’t pay out on defective work 

[Mr Punter]

Beware.  Many warranty insurers will have asked the builder / developer to sign to agree their rules of registration, which can include a clause allowing them to recover any expenses incurred from you.

 

The excess is also often £1,000.

Edited Monday at 12:47 by Mr Punter

[joe90]

Also that down pipe will be discharging even more water at that end, depends how big the roof above that downpipe is.

[Roundtuit]

I think I'd extend that downpipe above and drop it directly into the gutter too. 

[Paene Finitur]

Thanks @joe90

 

Yes, you're right, I meant minimum pitch.

 

I agree with your comments about the eave tray being too short and the guttering not extending. It was suggested to right angle it round the edge for good measure. The leadwork here is pretty lousy too - for a professional. I think these are good suggestions and I intend to implement them.

 

However, the issue of water coming round the back of the eaves tray and guttering extends right along the length of the wall which is around 6.5m and there are parts where it was so bad that the painter could not paint it due to the wood being damp. I suspect that this will need more than just an extension on the eaves trays.

[Paene Finitur]

10 minutes ago, nod said:

I agree with your roofer The pitch isn’t anything to do with this problem 

In any case It’s not his responsibility to decide on the correct tile for the pitch Unless he specified this particular tile 

But he has cut the tray to short It should finish inline with the roof and I would have run the gutter further also 

This done would more than likely sort the problem out 

NHBC like most warrantee companies hardly ever pay out and insist on a bond before coming out But won’t pay out on defective work 

 

Hmm, if the minimum allowable pitch for the tile is 35 degree and they are pitched at 25 degrees, that's surely a problem, right? It might not be the problem here, but I can't see it helping.

As to whether it's the responsibility of the roofer, he was sub-contracted by the project manager. I did not (but should have) seen the terms of this contract, but I would have reasonably expected a roofer with decades of experience to spot straight away if a tile being used is inappropriate for a particular pitch of roof and at least raise questions/concerns - after all it's his reputation at stake - but nothing was ever mentioned.

 

My warranty is with LABC but I agree with you about the likelihood of them paying out. Seems wrong t exclude defective work though when they had an inspector out regularly to check on it.

[Paene Finitur]

12 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Also that down pipe will be discharging even more water at that end, depends how big the roof above that downpipe is.

 

Yeah, I think that's a fair point too. The roof is pretty big above this point with a lot of water coming down off it further up from a higher pitch.

 

I've added a couple of photos - one from the window and one from gutter level - which hopefully give a better idea of the issue.

You can probably see from the second photo that the downpipe doesn't actually contribute most of the flow. In fact, most of it comes from, the gable end which drops from a higher pitch to a lower pitch and should be fairly constant across the 6.5m length of the guttering on the left although I agree that due to the confluence off the main roof, there will be more coming down on the far side.

 

You can also see that there's moss growth on this part of the roof which tends to suggest excess damp retention in the tiles & cement board.

 

Finally, you might be able to make out in the first picture that there's a roof-mounted extraction duct blended in there with the tiles. In very heavy rain, we also get rainwater flooding through the extractor fan into the utility below, which makes me feel that the pitch was too low here for this too.

[joe90]

41 minutes ago, Paene Finitur said:

However, the issue of water coming round the back of the eaves tray and guttering extends right along the length of the wall which is around 6.5m and there are parts where it was so bad that the painter could not paint it due to the wood being damp. I suspect that this will need more than just an extension on the eaves trays.

Ah, that was not evident from your original photo. I do wonder if the eaves trays and felt have been installed properly, a problem with minimum slope is with the kick up of bottom row of tiles can leave the felt creating a puddle next to the guttering.

however if the tiles have a minimum slope of 35’ and yours is installed at 25’ someone is very much at fault, I am surprised that a roofer with decades of experience could make such a school boy error.. 

[Paene Finitur]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Ah, that was not evident from your original photo. I do wonder if the eaves trays and felt have been installed properly, a problem with minimum slope is with the kick up of bottom row of tiles can leave the felt creating a puddle next to the guttering.

however if the tiles have a minimum slope of 35’ and yours is installed at 25’ someone is very much at fault, I am surprised that a roofer with decades of experience could make such a school boy error.. 

 

Yes, I suspect that is what is happening, and I am equally surprised - so much so that even though I suspected this for a while, I couldn't quite bring myself to believe it 

 

I will try to get another roofer to give an independent verdict, though if the pitch is the issue, they will presumably all have to be stripped back and potentially battened and rafter end replaced. I'm also rather pinning my hopes on the enclosed product which the roofing supplier indicated would be a way to get round this issue.

[joe90]

4 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

I will try to get another roofer to give an independent verdict,

+1 👍

4 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

I'm also rather pinning my hopes on the enclosed product which the roofing supplier indicated would be a way to get round this issue.

Would still require all tiles coming off. I would strip a section from gutter say 4 tiles up just to see what’s there for the second opinion to see, and some pics here for us to chip in as well.

Edited Monday at 18:29 by joe90

[joe90]

Just looking back at the pics and there are two down pipes above that end of guttering so a large area of roof water into a small area at the end of that gutter, I would suggest too much. In fact all the roof above that arrowed line ends up at that gutter end. Add to that the downpipe from that lower gutter appears to be at the opposite end, the lower gutter may be overflowing as it carries all the water from the roof that’s visible 🤷‍♂️

Edited Monday at 18:41 by joe90

[Andehh]

Could it be with water tracking up the back of the tiles into the woodwork vs into the gutter?

 

I'd tuck some membrane deep under the bottom few rows of tiles into the gutter to really trap the water.

 

[MPH243]

Is it the water hitting the outside of the gutter and splashing back onto the facia and rafter ends, it looks like a big roof into a small section of gutter but might be the camera view? 

[ProDave]

There is a lot of water arriving at the left hand end of that gutter, but the only down pipe is at the right hand end?

 

Have you stood outside in heavy rain and observed how the water flows into the gutter and does it over spill?

 

I would be looking to re jig the downpipes so there is a downpipe from the left hand end and try and route the upper pipes directly into that rather than onto that roof.

[saveasteading]

My thoughts, additional to the good advice above.

 

Usually rain is fairly vertical and not severe. The water will run nicely down the slope and not go in. 

In very severe storms and especially with wind, it might drive up between the tiles, but it is unlikely as the overlap is considerable. Then there is the membrane to catch it.

 

We cannot know if the membrane is intact and lapped properly.

 

The eaves and gutter is a mess.

For now I would cut out an overflow from the stop end so that any extreme flow can escape...into a butt perhaps.

An additional downpipe may solve it. More on that if requested.

 

It is a plastic gutter. They often distort. Can you check if it is in a straight line or twisted....the lowest point will shed water, perhaps inwards.

Is the gutter on a slope downwards to the pipe?

Downpipes work very much better with flow from 2 sides. 

You have the additional pipe shedding onto this roof....lots of water at the wrong end from the downpipe. PLUS the flashings are random here....extend the lead fiwn to the gutter and complete the longitudinal flashing.

 

LABC would say that this was built incomptetently and they don't cover that.....unless they had checked it....had they?

[joe90]

Just looking back at the pics and there are two down pipes above that end of guttering so a large area of roof water into a small area at the end of that gutter, I would suggest too much.n

 

Has anyone done a rainwater/gutter calculation?

 

https://www.briarwoodsupplies.co.uk/pages/guttering-calculator?srsltid=AfmBOoo8gRgO1_cK0F4fUQ1bIhBmLiimLUEswuW8F6dS6vdLUkEriGFP

[saveasteading]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Has anyone done a rainwater/gutter calculation

I think we know the answer. A gutter and dp to a recognised design and properly installed will not overflow.

 

An old one might, because of recent changes in rainfall.

This one is sortable but needs some technical skill. 

@Paene Finitur can we have your thoughts and response to whats above? The answer is probably in there.

It's OK to acknowledge and say , let's have a few days off the subject.

[Paene Finitur]

On 24/12/2024 at 09:52, saveasteading said:

@Paene Finitur can we have your thoughts and response to whats above? The answer is probably in there.

It's OK to acknowledge and say , let's have a few days off the subject.

 

Sorry - a bit distracted with Christmas and other responsibilities. To go through the feedback above (and thanks so much everyone for taking the time to respond)

 

There's a confluence point (see pic detail) where an awful lot of water comes together. I initially thought that this was the problem and that the issue was that the guttering (open ended on the right) should be closed with a down pipe on the left side nearer the window (ugly, but if it works) I also thought the that existing down pipe not shown here but to the left on the other side of the window, should be directed further out on the roof in case the deluge was going under the flashing.

 

However, I have stood in fairly heavy rain and observed what's happening on the roof. Yes, there is a lot of water coming together at this point but it didn't look as if the roof was failing to cope with it. The gutter certainly appeared to be coping with the downpour and was not overflowing, nor was there evidence that the gulley was too tight and the deluge was overwhelming it.  That's just from my untrained eye though.

 

I'm therefore disinclined to think that this is the root cause of the problem - though it may still be a problem, I agree - mainly because of the following:

1. There does not appear to be any evidence of damp or water ingress around the area of the flashing on the inside of the house. I admit it may just not have come through yet and I also agree that the flashing - particularly at the bottom - is lousy.
2. The issue of water dripping down behind the gutter onto the facias and rafter footings seems more or less consistent across the length of the lower gutter  - not just at the far end above the side door, which implies to me that it's a issue affecting the length of the gable end, not just the valley on the left hand side.
3. Even after very light rain, or when there has been no rain for a day or so, I can often find - like the original pictures - lots of drips and moisture across the footings when the tiles and gutter are relatively dry. This makes me suspect that there is moisture trapped behind the tiles/membrane.

On one occasion, the roofer came back and lifted several rows (can't recall exactly how many) of tiles and laid another membrane. This did not make any noticeable difference.

 

The lower guttering does not seem uneven or twisted. As you may see from the original picture, there's a bit of vegetation overgrowth from a neighbours side which I've tried to keep in check to avoid leaf blockage etc. Ideally, two downpipes on this section would have been sensible, I agree, though there is no room for a butt here and the only other drain is a foul from the washing machine/sink, which obvs I'd like to avoid running into.

 

As for a rainwater/gutter calculation, I agree this should have been done. I've looked through all of the documentation that I have from the structural engineers but can find nothing giving such details. It seems odd, but I will have to assume that it was not done. ☹️ My plan is to get an independent roofer in once things start up again in January, and get an assessment of the issue. I will discuss the rainwater/gutter calculation - thanks for raising it.

 

Finally, I agree that LABC would say that this has not been competently fitted. I would argue back that they had an inspection program that should have picked this up. Whether I am right or wrong in that, I would doubt that it will make a difference. My suspicion here is that the project manager did not pick up that the choice of rooftiles was not suitable for the particular pitch of one section of the roof and the roofer did not pick up on this. I could try to take either/both to the small claims court though again, I suspect I would be banging my head against a brick wall. In the case of the project manager, it seems there are a queue of customers and tradespeople with grievances/claims against him. I guess this answers my initial question of whether an LABC claim would be an effective move.

 

I plan not to do any more on this until I get a detailed opinion on the issue from an independent roofer, with a view to how much it will cost to put right. If the cost to remediate is considerable, then I will have to weigh my options about how to proceed further.

Again, I really appreciate all your feedback on this and I will keep the thread updated as things develop.

 

[saveasteading]

5 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

I have stood in fairly heavy rain and observed

well done, that is always the best.

5 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

moisture trapped behind the tiles/membrane.

it is liquid running water you are looking for. you have  a leak.

 

5 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

I would argue back that they had an inspection program that should have picked this up.

Imagine the cost of such multiple inspections, and the additional premium for being responsible for all workmanship and all consequences.

 

That red circle does look favourite as a problem. I don't like the gutter chucking uphill and clashing with other running water downhill.

 

But there is definitely regular extreme wetness at the left end of the bottom gutter. If not from the gutter then from the confluence as you neatly describe it.

 

In looking for leaks I start from the end point. so that is the left gutter end and support. water generally takes predictable routes following gravity, so straight up the slope is likeliest.

 

My kneejerk solution is a metal flashing from gutter left, to underside of the flashing above it. And another catching all the water from the red circle confluence.

Plus the red circle gutter could do with being cast away from the circle onto an area of complete tiles, using an additional downpipe and shoe. This will also m ove it slightly from the lower confluence.