Thoughts on warranty claim for a defective roof

[Paene Finitur]

Hi All, I'm seriously considering my options, including making a warranty claim for a substandard roof in our 2 year old self-build. Just wanted to hear anyone's views on it.

 

The project was run by a project manager who work closely with a local structural design company. The roof consists of hand made clay tiles and was fitted by a local roofer with decades of experience. All has been fine except for one section where we have had problems of water going behind the guttering and soaking the eaves and exposed rafter feet, which are now showing signs of damp damage.

 

We have of course, had the roofer back on several occasions to look at the issue and he has done some work to remedy the problem, but to no avail. He's also not the easiest or most reliable person, in terms of keeping appointments so this has been over an extended period.

 

Over the last few months, I finally lost my patience and did what I should have done a lot earlier; I did a lot of my own research and asked around the roofing trade online for some opinions. In particular, I got some great help from a local roofing supplier who stated straight away that he felt that the tiles are at too low a pitch on this part of the roof - these tiles should be no less than 35 degrees (in this part of the roof they are laid at around 25 degrees). He stated that the max pitch should be on the plans but I've not spotted them anywhere. He also gave me the name of another local roofer who I intend to ask to visit, give a professional opinion and quote for repair work. I am not expecting this to be cheap.

 

Without mentioning my investigations, I also suggested to the original roofer that the pitch looks too shallow for hand made clay tiles, and that I'd have expected him to spot this. He replied that he didn't think that was the issue but in any case, the calculations were done by the project manager, not him. I should add that I had to let the project manager go since he made numerous costly mistakes, failed to bring the project in anywhere near on time or to budget and was absent for large periods without any explanation.

 

I'm just wondering where all this leaves me. I am unlikely to get anything from either the roofer or the project manager without a costly fight - despite this problem likely being due to their actions/mistakes. That said, if it does prove expensive, I feel I will have to document a case to LABC - the warranty provider - and try to make a claim. Any thoughts or experiences you can share would be very much appreciated, as it's the first time I've considered going down this route.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:15 by Paene Finitur

[joe90]

22 minutes ago, Paene Finitur said:

Now, the roofing supplier stated that the max pitch should be on the plans but I've not spotted them anywhere.

I think you mean minimum pitch. 
 

The minimum roof pitch for handmade clay tiles is usually 35°, but it can vary depending on the type of tile: 

 

personally (from the photos) the problem only exists at the far left side and I notice that the felt tray (plastic sticking out into the guttering) is short of the roof, it should continue further left to the edge of the tiles. Also I think  the guttering is a bit short, if it were a couple of inches longer it would catch water off that lead which I don’t believe it’s doing at the moment. If it were me I would angle grind into the mortar between tiles at the far left and insert a short length of eaves tray right up to the edge of the tiles, also I would extend the guttering a few inches longer . If you don’t want to do this get your roofer to do it, far cheaper than getting into claims (and best of luck claiming of NHBC).

 

minimum slope is to stop wind driven rain being blown back under the tiles but the felt/membrane and eaves tray should still catch this. 

Edited yesterday at 12:27 by joe90

[nod]

I agree with your roofer The pitch isn’t anything to do with this problem 

In any case It’s not his responsibility to decide on the correct tile for the pitch Unless he specified this particular tile 

But he has cut the tray to short It should finish inline with the roof and I would have run the gutter further also 

This done would more than likely sort the problem out 

NHBC like most warrantee companies hardly ever pay out and insist on a bond before coming out But won’t pay out on defective work 

[Mr Punter]

Beware.  Many warranty insurers will have asked the builder / developer to sign to agree their rules of registration, which can include a clause allowing them to recover any expenses incurred from you.

 

The excess is also often £1,000.

Edited yesterday at 12:47 by Mr Punter

[joe90]

Also that down pipe will be discharging even more water at that end, depends how big the roof above that downpipe is.

[Roundtuit]

I think I'd extend that downpipe above and drop it directly into the gutter too. 

[Paene Finitur]

Thanks @joe90

 

Yes, you're right, I meant minimum pitch.

 

I agree with your comments about the eave tray being too short and the guttering not extending. It was suggested to right angle it round the edge for good measure. The leadwork here is pretty lousy too - for a professional. I think these are good suggestions and I intend to implement them.

 

However, the issue of water coming round the back of the eaves tray and guttering extends right along the length of the wall which is around 6.5m and there are parts where it was so bad that the painter could not paint it due to the wood being damp. I suspect that this will need more than just an extension on the eaves trays.

[Paene Finitur]

10 minutes ago, nod said:

I agree with your roofer The pitch isn’t anything to do with this problem 

In any case It’s not his responsibility to decide on the correct tile for the pitch Unless he specified this particular tile 

But he has cut the tray to short It should finish inline with the roof and I would have run the gutter further also 

This done would more than likely sort the problem out 

NHBC like most warrantee companies hardly ever pay out and insist on a bond before coming out But won’t pay out on defective work 

 

Hmm, if the minimum allowable pitch for the tile is 35 degree and they are pitched at 25 degrees, that's surely a problem, right? It might not be the problem here, but I can't see it helping.

As to whether it's the responsibility of the roofer, he was sub-contracted by the project manager. I did not (but should have) seen the terms of this contract, but I would have reasonably expected a roofer with decades of experience to spot straight away if a tile being used is inappropriate for a particular pitch of roof and at least raise questions/concerns - after all it's his reputation at stake - but nothing was ever mentioned.

 

My warranty is with LABC but I agree with you about the likelihood of them paying out. Seems wrong t exclude defective work though when they had an inspector out regularly to check on it.

[Paene Finitur]

12 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Also that down pipe will be discharging even more water at that end, depends how big the roof above that downpipe is.

 

Yeah, I think that's a fair point too. The roof is pretty big above this point with a lot of water coming down off it further up from a higher pitch.

 

I've added a couple of photos - one from the window and one from gutter level - which hopefully give a better idea of the issue.

You can probably see from the second photo that the downpipe doesn't actually contribute most of the flow. In fact, most of it comes from, the gable end which drops from a higher pitch to a lower pitch and should be fairly constant across the 6.5m length of the guttering on the left although I agree that due to the confluence off the main roof, there will be more coming down on the far side.

 

You can also see that there's moss growth on this part of the roof which tends to suggest excess damp retention in the tiles & cement board.

 

Finally, you might be able to make out in the first picture that there's a roof-mounted extraction duct blended in there with the tiles. In very heavy rain, we also get rainwater flooding through the extractor fan into the utility below, which makes me feel that the pitch was too low here for this too.

[joe90]

41 minutes ago, Paene Finitur said:

However, the issue of water coming round the back of the eaves tray and guttering extends right along the length of the wall which is around 6.5m and there are parts where it was so bad that the painter could not paint it due to the wood being damp. I suspect that this will need more than just an extension on the eaves trays.

Ah, that was not evident from your original photo. I do wonder if the eaves trays and felt have been installed properly, a problem with minimum slope is with the kick up of bottom row of tiles can leave the felt creating a puddle next to the guttering.

however if the tiles have a minimum slope of 35’ and yours is installed at 25’ someone is very much at fault, I am surprised that a roofer with decades of experience could make such a school boy error.. 

[Paene Finitur]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Ah, that was not evident from your original photo. I do wonder if the eaves trays and felt have been installed properly, a problem with minimum slope is with the kick up of bottom row of tiles can leave the felt creating a puddle next to the guttering.

however if the tiles have a minimum slope of 35’ and yours is installed at 25’ someone is very much at fault, I am surprised that a roofer with decades of experience could make such a school boy error.. 

 

Yes, I suspect that is what is happening, and I am equally surprised - so much so that even though I suspected this for a while, I couldn't quite bring myself to believe it 

 

I will try to get another roofer to give an independent verdict, though if the pitch is the issue, they will presumably all have to be stripped back and potentially battened and rafter end replaced. I'm also rather pinning my hopes on the enclosed product which the roofing supplier indicated would be a way to get round this issue.

[joe90]

4 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

I will try to get another roofer to give an independent verdict,

+1 👍

4 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

I'm also rather pinning my hopes on the enclosed product which the roofing supplier indicated would be a way to get round this issue.

Would still require all tiles coming off. I would strip a section from gutter say 4 tiles up just to see what’s there for the second opinion to see, and some pics here for us to chip in as well.

Edited 19 hours ago by joe90

[joe90]

Just looking back at the pics and there are two down pipes above that end of guttering so a large area of roof water into a small area at the end of that gutter, I would suggest too much. In fact all the roof above that arrowed line ends up at that gutter end. Add to that the downpipe from that lower gutter appears to be at the opposite end, the lower gutter may be overflowing as it carries all the water from the roof that’s visible 🤷‍♂️

Edited 18 hours ago by joe90

[Andehh]

Could it be with water tracking up the back of the tiles into the woodwork vs into the gutter?

 

I'd tuck some membrane deep under the bottom few rows of tiles into the gutter to really trap the water.

 

[MPH243]

Is it the water hitting the outside of the gutter and splashing back onto the facia and rafter ends, it looks like a big roof into a small section of gutter but might be the camera view? 

[ProDave]

There is a lot of water arriving at the left hand end of that gutter, but the only down pipe is at the right hand end?

 

Have you stood outside in heavy rain and observed how the water flows into the gutter and does it over spill?

 

I would be looking to re jig the downpipes so there is a downpipe from the left hand end and try and route the upper pipes directly into that rather than onto that roof.

[saveasteading]

My thoughts, additional to the good advice above.

 

Usually rain is fairly vertical and not severe. The water will run nicely down the slope and not go in. 

In very severe storms and especially with wind, it might drive up between the tiles, but it is unlikely as the overlap is considerable. Then there is the membrane to catch it.

 

We cannot know if the membrane is intact and lapped properly.

 

The eaves and gutter is a mess.

For now I would cut out an overflow from the stop end so that any extreme flow can escape...into a butt perhaps.

An additional downpipe may solve it. More on that if requested.

 

It is a plastic gutter. They often distort. Can you check if it is in a straight line or twisted....the lowest point will shed water, perhaps inwards.

Is the gutter on a slope downwards to the pipe?

Downpipes work very much better with flow from 2 sides. 

You have the additional pipe shedding onto this roof....lots of water at the wrong end from the downpipe. PLUS the flashings are random here....extend the lead fiwn to the gutter and complete the longitudinal flashing.

 

LABC would say that this was built incomptetently and they don't cover that.....unless they had checked it....had they?

[joe90]

Just looking back at the pics and there are two down pipes above that end of guttering so a large area of roof water into a small area at the end of that gutter, I would suggest too much.n

 

Has anyone done a rainwater/gutter calculation?

 

https://www.briarwoodsupplies.co.uk/pages/guttering-calculator?srsltid=AfmBOoo8gRgO1_cK0F4fUQ1bIhBmLiimLUEswuW8F6dS6vdLUkEriGFP

[saveasteading]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Has anyone done a rainwater/gutter calculation

I think we know the answer. A gutter and dp to a recognised design and properly installed will not overflow.

 

An old one might, because of recent changes in rainfall.

This one is sortable but needs some technical skill. 

@Paene Finitur can we have your thoughts and response to whats above? The answer is probably in there.

It's OK to acknowledge and say , let's have a few days off the subject.