Gas supply removal….

[G and J]

Da Bungalow we will be demolishing has gas heating.  We want to be good little eco-peeps so early on we decided to go all electric with a heat pump.  
 

Which means we need to get the gas pipe removed, so I phoned up to discover that the cost is ‘from’£2k, I presume plus vat, and that there are no grants or subsidies that I can claim towards the cost of being a good citizen.  There is, however, a subsidy towards having a new gas connection.  The agent was super helpful, and they suggested that whilst they don’t condone this, a lot of peeps just leave the pipe capped off in situ, especially as that means it’s easier to return to gas if the heat pump doesn’t live up to expectations.  
 

In the following discussion the agent disclosed that a growing number of peeps are doing just that, though they were yet to talk to anyone with a ground source heat pump who wanted to return to gas.

 

Our neighbours are concerned about our plan for an ASHP.  It requires us finding a trustworthy MCS person to not simply inflate the labour cost to hoover up the grant for themselves.  We will be spending more money to locate the pump half way down the garden.

 

I know the heat pump will also cool the house, and that will either prove vital or pointless.  But I wonder.  The heat pump route will cost us more capital at a time when spare capital is not sloshing around.  It will also cost us a cupboard for the DHW cylinder.  It is likely to cost about the same to run as a small gas combi, which our neighbours would prefer anyway.  And I could plumb things so that converting to an ASHP later was relatively painless.  

Or maybe I should simply leave the damn gas pipe in place, capped off, and work around it.

 

So why am I making life difficult for myself?  Why not simply go gas day one and let society/government wake up to the effect of their policies….

[Oz07]

I think i would use gas if available, especially if retro fit can be made easy

[joe90]

2 hours ago, G and J said:

And I could plumb things so that converting to an ASHP later was relatively painless.  

+1, with UFH. 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, G and J said:

It requires us finding a trustworthy MCS person to not simply inflate the labour

Not true, just put the heat pump on your planning application with the location you will install. Then you don't need to use MCS at all. You end up express planning not permitted development.

 

Move your utilities to octopus and they remove for free.

1 hour ago, G and J said:

neighbours are concerned about our plan for an ASHP

People need to see and hear heat pumps. They just aren't noisy. Today 0 degs, pumping at 32 degs, was about 500mm before I could hear it.

 

Do what you want, not some misinformed person next door. It's your money.

 

After having a combi, then a combi with preheat and now UVC, UVC every time would be my choice. Heat how you feel it's right. But whatever you do install a heat pump cylinder. If you go gas PDHW so weather compensation and high flow temp. With a heat pump cylinder you can condense all the time.

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

3 hours ago, G and J said:

Which means we need to get the gas pipe removed, so I phoned up to discover that the cost is ‘from’£2k, I presume plus vat, and that there are no grants or subsidies that I can claim towards the cost of being a good citizen.  There is, however, a subsidy towards having a new gas connection.  The agent was super helpful, and they suggested that whilst they don’t condone this, a lot of peeps just leave the pipe capped off in situ, especially as that means it’s easier to return to gas if the heat pump doesn’t live up to expectations.  

It should cost nothing, just a try on - here is process we used.

 

Ask to have the meter removed as you no longer want to pay the standing charge, wait 6 months and you will get a letter asking when the meter is being replaced, you say it isn't they write back and say in that case we will need to cut the supply off at the road - no charge.

[G and J]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

It should cost nothing, just a try on - here is process we used.

 

Ask to have the meter removed as you no longer want to pay the standing charge, wait 6 months and you will get a letter asking when the meter is being replaced, you say it isn't they write back and say in that case we will need to cut the supply off at the road - no charge.

I wish I’d known that 6 months ago.

[G and J]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Move your utilities to octopus and they remove for free

Having the meter removed is free.  Is having the supply cut off at the road that costs the money.

[G and J]

4 hours ago, Oz07 said:

I think i would use gas if available, especially if retro fit can be made easy

Ours is a demolish and replace, so we have a free hand.  Gas is available but that feels like we are not doing the right thing by the planet, and that does guide many of our decisions.

[G and J]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Then you don't need to use MCS at all.

I thought I needed an MCS installer to get a grant.  The ASHP is on our planning permission. 
 

Goodness my head hurts.  

[JohnMo]

27 minutes ago, G and J said:

I thought I needed an MCS installer to get a grant.

You do, but why would you? they will charge an arm and leg and give you a rubbish system.  DIY it

[Nickfromwales]

32 minutes ago, G and J said:

Ours is a demolish and replace, so we have a free hand.  Gas is available but that feels like we are not doing the right thing by the planet, and that does guide many of our decisions.

All depends upon the fabric quality and energy efficiency of what you replace the existing dwelling with, to be completely frank with you. The device choice argument is moot, if the agreed option is less economical to run than gas one you turned your back on.

You'll notice that all the big hitters that make gas boilers are all selling new ones as 'hydrogen ready', if requested. Why do you think they're doing that?

 

If this is not an uber-well insulated/airtight dwelling with eco 'super-credentials' and MVHR with heat recovery et-al, then stick with gas. If you fit an ASHP and it's not a good fit for the dwelling, you'll be burning the planets resources at the same rate of knots with an ASHP anyways.

 

Remember with gas, the network will NOT be going away, only the product coming out of the end of it will change (in our lifetimes for sure).

 

If your heat pump ends up with a CoP of 1:1 then you've basically heating off direct electricity, on demand, and the planet is doomed.

 

Oh, and stop considering your bloody neighbours so much. They'd shit on you in a heartbeat, if it worked out in their favour to fit a noisy heat pump to their home, ffs. Tell them we said "hi". FWIW, a good quality (even a cheap) heat pump will be as quiet as a church mouse coughing into a hanky. If, however, you fit the same heat pump to a dwelling that doesn't compliment it, then it'll be getting an ASBO PDQ.

[saveasteading]

ASHP being noisy is a myth spread by the oil industry and climate change deniers.

There used to be some noisy ones. My oil boiler here makes a horrible whoomph when starting, and is noisier than any old ashp, plus sends a stink out...which your neighbours won't get with your   heat pump.

[G and J]

49 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

All depends upon the fabric quality and energy efficiency of what you replace the existing dwelling with, to be completely frank with you. The device choice argument is moot, if the agreed option is less economical to run than gas one you turned your back on.

You'll notice that all the big hitters that make gas boilers are all selling new ones as 'hydrogen ready', if requested. Why do you think they're doing that?

 

If this is not an uber-well insulated/airtight dwelling with eco 'super-credentials' and MVHR with heat recovery et-al, then stick with gas. If you fit an ASHP and it's not a good fit for the dwelling, you'll be burning the planets resources at the same rate of knots with an ASHP anyways.

 

Remember with gas, the network will NOT be going away, only the product coming out of the end of it will change (in our lifetimes for sure).

 

If your heat pump ends up with a CoP of 1:1 then you've basically heating off direct electricity, on demand, and the planet is doomed.

 

Oh, and stop considering your bloody neighbours so much. They'd shit on you in a heartbeat, if it worked out in their favour to fit a noisy heat pump to their home, ffs. Tell them we said "hi". FWIW, a good quality (even a cheap) heat pump will be as quiet as a church mouse coughing into a hanky. If, however, you fit the same heat pump to a dwelling that doesn't compliment it, then it'll be getting an ASBO PDQ.

Hmmmm. Understood and I agree with all but one point: regardless of the actions of others we will continue to consider others, even when their feelings are irrational or in our eyes unreasonable we’ll still do our bestest to be nice.  
 

That said balance is needed, and we politely tried to ease their concerns and went ahead planned in the ASHP anyway as we believed it to be the right thing to do.  
 

I guess I reacted to the unexpected and unwelcome extra cost in an emotional manner.  I try not to do that too often. 
 

The plan is to go for v airtight with MVHR and sensible insulation levels for a modest house.  Jeremy’s spreadsheet tells me at the lowest temperatures outside that we can reasonably plan on will require just over 2kW to maintain 21C inside.  
 

Whilst our design does not have significant amounts of glazing we really value the idea of ASHP cooling and we’re building in a fancoil in our bedroom to boost the effect of cooling the slab downstairs.  
 

Probably the weakest part of the plan is my penchant for washing up in very hot water.  So rather than destroy the COP for DHW we’re having a Quooker tap thingy to top the bowl ready filled from the tank. 
 

The original motivation to go all electric wasn’t financial.  I happen to believe that tariffs and subsidies should be set up to reward doing the right thing but life’s not always like that.  
 

The thing that really got my goat was the fact that new gas connections were subsidised.  That really pissed me off. 

Edited November 18 by G and J
My yewslis spelling…. sigh.

[G and J]

14 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

ASHP being noisy is a myth spread by the oil industry and climate change deniers.

There used to be some noisy ones. My oil boiler here makes a horrible whoomph when starting, and is noisier than any old ashp, plus sends a stink out...which your neighbours won't get with your   heat pump.

Sadly I’ve stood next to noisy heat pumps, and I’m a climate emergency believer (with currently a 33 year old oil boiler!). 
 

But I’ve also stood next to a really, really quiet one - thank you @Nick Laslett, so methinks it simply becomes my responsibility, on fitting a pump, to keep it running quietly.  

[LnP]

17 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You'll notice that all the big hitters that make gas boilers are all selling new ones as 'hydrogen ready', if requested. Why do you think they're doing that?

 

If you're concerned about the planet and you think your gas utility are going to put hydrogen in your gas pipes, you should definitely install a heat pump. Let's hope someone can explain the second law of thermodynamics to our politicians so that this never happens. Burning green hydrogen for home heating would be madness. It will be expensive and bad for the planet. Getting a kWh of heat into your house by burning hydrogen will require six times more renewable energy generation than doing it with a heat pump. That's six times as many wind turbines and PV panels.

 

The priority for green hydrogen should be to use it in applications where there is no alternative, e.g. fertiliser (ammonia, urea), chemicals manufacture (methanol) and oil refining which currently get their hydrogen from natural gas. If all of the existing renewable electricity in the world were used for those industrial uses, it would not be sufficient for the current industrial demand. Before we even think about burning hydrogen, we should use it first for those applications.

 

If you're interested in reading more, check out Michael Liebreich's Hydrogen Ladder.

[Nickfromwales]

12 minutes ago, G and J said:

so methinks it simply becomes my responsibility, on fitting a pump, to keep it running quietly.  

 

16 minutes ago, G and J said:

at the lowest temperatures outside that we can reasonably plan on will require just over 2kW to maintain 21C inside.  

Then your heat pump will be quieter than a congregation, when the vicar says "does anyone know of any lawful impediment".... lol

[G and J]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Then your heat pump will be quieter than a congregation, when the vicar says "does anyone know of any lawful impediment".... lol

Oooh I do hope so.  
 

Anyway the heat pump won’t be running at the coldest times cos I’m a woodburner addict. I know, I know….. but many peeps have a dirty secret….

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, G and J said:

Oooh I do hope so.  
 

Anyway the heat pump won’t be running at the coldest times cos I’m a woodburner addict. I know, I know….. but many peeps have a dirty secret….

We'll all just go and kill ourselves now ok, thanks  

[G and J]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

We'll all just go and kill ourselves now ok, thanks  

Sure, but first sit by the fire warming your toes and stare into the glowing embers as you cuddle your mug of cocoa.  It’s awfully pleasant slowly poisoning one’s neighbours.  

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, G and J said:

Sure, but first sit by the fire warming your toes and stare into the glowing embers as you cuddle your mug of cocoa.  It’s awfully pleasant slowly poisoning one’s neighbours.  

"Refereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee". 👉  

[Iceverge]

5 minutes ago, G and J said:

Sure, but first sit by the fire warming your toes and stare into the glowing embers as you cuddle your mug of cocoa.  It’s awfully pleasant slowly poisoning one’s neighbours.  

 

Let me modify the above sentence for use in a super insulated modern house.

 

"But first, writh uncomfortably by the fire, sweat dripping off the hairs on your toes, stareing into the lava hot, death furnace, as the steaming cocoa liquidifies your skin and the neighbours are asphyxiated by the emerging smell of melting human flesh". 

 

 

 

[G and J]

7 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

Let me modify the above sentence for use in a super insulated modern house.

 

"But first, writh uncomfortably by the fire, sweat dripping off the hairs on your toes, stareing into the lava hot, death furnace, as the steaming cocoa liquidifies your skin and the neighbours are asphyxiated by the emerging smell of melting human flesh". 

 

 

 

So I won’t need a sauna membership then….   Excellent, that’ll save running costs.   😉 

[G and J]

8 hours ago, Iceverge said:

the hairs on your toes

How did you know that I’m a hobbit?

[Mike]

22 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Remember with gas, the network will NOT be going away, only the product coming out of the end of it will change (in our lifetimes for sure)

Unlikely, and whatever happens the price is likely to go up considerably. It's already gone up in France this year due to the number of gas users quitting the network as electrification kicks in - see https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/37232-gas-network-price-rises-heading-to-the-uk-eventually - and that's only going to accelerate.

 

That's without the cost of upgrading the gas grid to take hydrogen - pipe pressures will have to be increased to compensate for the difference in molecular weight, needing new pumps, and appliances and network equipment have to be upgraded to stop the smaller hydrogen molecules escaping. Then you have the cost of generating the hydrogen. Replacing methane with hydrogen in the pipe seems to be either wishful thinking by the gas industry at best or, being more cynical, a deliberate ploy by them to hamper Government decision-making, prolong the use of natural gas and delay electrification.

 

 

[RobLe]

We got Octopus to remove our gas meter a year and an half ago, they do it for free, can’t say fairer than that!  They took the meter itself, capped off the plastic pipe inside the meter box outside our house, turned off the pipe shutoff and took the lever away for good measure.

I think a year after it had gone we got a letter from Cadent saying they’d come and inspect - and that if they thought it was unsafe they’d charge to take out the pipe all the way to the road - and that would be the pricey bit(£1500 ish I think).  The pipe was still nicely protected in the meter box, so they went away happy - no charge 😇