Just recd an email from architect saying I need a Principal Designer and a Principal Contractor for my project

[Caroline]

The architect says:

 

"as you are probably aware recent changes to the Building Regulations require you as the client to appoint both a Principal Designer and a Principal Contractor for the project (see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/design-and-building-work-meeting-building-requirements#domestic-clients-duties for further information in this regard). Whilst we have been acting in the role of Principal Designer for the purposes of planning, managing, monitoring and co-ordinating matters related to the detailed design (RIBA Stage 4) phase of this project, we will not be involved in the construction phase and therefore cannot continue in this role."

 

This project is our third, we previously dealt with all the CDM requirements e.g. H&S/sub-contractors welfare facilities etc.  I wasn't aware there had been recent changes.  Can we, as self builders and the client, also be the principal designer/contractor?  We propose sub-contracting out all of the building work.

 

Thank you.

[Conor]

You set yourself as both client, principle designer and possibly contractor as well. However, if you are getting a builder in to organise more than a single piece of work, they should be the principle contractor at the time they are working. We did it that way, the off guy was principle contractor until he left, then I assumed the responsibility as I was directly contracting people in.

 

(CDM 2015, Northern Ireland)

 

 

[nod]

As above 

Its a bit like Cadburys telling us that we all need to each more chocolate 

[saveasteading]

29 minutes ago, Conor said:

You set yourself as both client, principle designer and possibly contractor as well.

Manage it well so that there are no accidents and you won't get in trouble.

Assuming that contractors are doing it safely is not enough. You must stay in touch and stop silly things.

 

4 minutes ago, nod said:

Its a bit like Cadburys telling us that we all need to each more chocolate 

Fortunately  you don't have to buy Cadbury's and thefore....no I can't continue the analogy.

[kandgmitchell]

This is about competancy for designing building regulation compliant work rather than CDM. The new Building Safety Act requires those designing work to be competant. This is really to try and prevent another Grenfell situation and to make sure complex buildings are designed by those who understand them. 

 

This however is a house. I presume your architect has done the building regulation drawings and got approval? If so then the design work is done and they were the competant designer. Since you have done two self-builds before I would suggest that you are competant to organise the build using competant contractors. At the end of the job your BCO will ask you to sign a form confirming who were the competant persons - the architect was the designer and you were the contractor. Ultimately unless the whole thing collapses around your ears no-one will be interested in any of this after 12 months.

 

Recent experience suggests that unless you are building an 18 storey block of flats, life is going on very much like it was just with more paperwork to sign.

[joe90]

13 minutes ago, kandgmitchell said:

This is really to try and prevent another Grenfell situation

I feel strongly about the Grenfell situation, I don’t believe it was about principle designers it was about producers being allowed (wrongly) to make up their own safety conclusions. BCO.s and building regs should be controlling this IMO.

Edited November 1 by joe90

[nod]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Manage it well so that there are no accidents and you won't get in trouble.

Assuming that contractors are doing it safely is not enough. You must stay in touch and stop silly things.

 

Fortunately  you don't have to buy Cadbury's and thefore....no I can't continue the analogy.

Fortunately 

You don’t have to employ a principle contractor Or designer You can be a self builder and not be shackled to anyone 

[PNAmble]

We had a similar email from our architect once we sacked the idiot. they are covering their arses and trying to con you into paying for them during build.   Ours wanted to install roof safety systems and a A1 fire protection system as in his view it protected his role as principle designer. 

[LnP]

Since you will be self managing, you will be the Principal Contractor. There’s a nice summary what that means in the examples section towards the bottom of this guidance from the Self Build Portal. You’re responsible for the matters in Part 4 of CDM, which shouldn’t be difficult for you as you’ve managed building sites before. 
 

Regarding the Principal Designer role, it’s nice that your architect agrees that they have been responsible for that. Once the construction phase starts, the PD’s work is mostly done. The PD now just has to hand over the H&S file to the PC. Ask them for it.

 

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> I feel strongly about the Grenfell situation

 

Yeah agree, Peter Apps's book is good btw.

 

I'm not convinced that the CDM regs will stop Grenfell-style shenanigans though.

[Caroline]

Thank you everyone.  Your comments are invaluable and I suppose I was just doubting myself.  We live on site and will be managing the sub-contractors on a day to day basis, so will take on role of Principal Contractor, or not as we are self builders.  Building control has been passed and ironically our building control officer (private company) is the same person who did our BC on our last project.  We had our structural engineer's drawings double checked by a second SE as we had queries on original, there is underpinning to existing steels involved and very deep 2.2m foundations on one part due to trees that were removed 15m away!  Anyway, wish us luck and hoping to be done in 12 months

[DevilDamo]

> > > I'm not convinced that the CDM regs will stop Grenfell-style shenanigans though.

 

This isn’t anything to do with the CDM regulations.

[Redbeard]

10 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

 

This isn’t anything to do with the CDM regulations.

 

Yes. I can't help feeling that clarity would have been helped if they had used something like 'Lead Designer (BSA)' and 'Lead Contractor (BSA)' (no, not the Birmingham Small Arms  BSA!) to avoid confusion between BSA/B Regs and CDM.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Caroline said:

2.2m foundations on one part due to trees that were removed 15m away

That sounds onerous. The thirstiest tree in heavy clay. Some designers make the mistake of designing for the closest foundation and applying it all round. Are yours shallower further from the former trees?

How long ago were they removed and how mature?

[Mike]

21 hours ago, Caroline said:

Can we, as self builders and the client, also be the principal designer/contractor?

Yes, for the avoidance of doubt if you, as the client, don't appoint anyone, then the legal responsibility for both roles is all yours :)

[Caroline]

On 02/11/2024 at 14:31, saveasteading said:

That sounds onerous. The thirstiest tree in heavy clay. Some designers make the mistake of designing for the closest foundation and applying it all round. Are yours shallower further from the former trees?

How long ago were they removed and how mature?

Yes they are shallower, going from 2.2m to 1.5m then to 1m.  They were removed around a year ago, this is from the report:

 

There are a number of trees along the southern side of the barn which whilst not very large do have an effect on the foundation depth required. For example the Wych Elms (assuming they are removed*) require a foundation depth of 2.2m there is an oak tree to on the opposite side of the track this requires a foundation depth of 1.75m. *as a tree grows it removes moisture from the soil as it does so it shrinks, when a tree is removed the soil will expand as it returns to its natural moisture content. Both Wych Elms and Oak have high water demand so have a significant impact on foundation depth.

 

 

[saveasteading]

What they are saying is almost correct. These depths of foundations are for the amount of water that a mature tree will suck from the ground. So we assume that the trees will continue to maturity. If these were immature then the effect is less.

How much less, I don't think is known. 

Thus your depths are on the safe side.

 

1 hour ago, Caroline said:

(assuming they are removed*

But the depth stated us as if they are retained. 

And there has been one winter of recovery.

It's not for me to say more and I was mainly checking it wasn't all to the most extreme  depth.

[WannabeBob]

I’ve just encountered the same issue when our architects were preparing to submit to building regs, as apparently we need to appoint a Building Regulations Principal Designer and Building Regulations Principal Contractor under Part 2A of the Building Regulations. These roles being distinct from the PD/PC roles defined in CDM. 

 

They’ve agreed to be the Principal Designer but we need a Principal Contractor(s)

 

How are people handling this if intending to contract trades individually? From the wording of the Building Regulations, each time the client appoints a new BRPC, they need to notify building regs of the change in appointment. Does this mean that when I hire an electrician, they’d have to be appointed as the new BRPC and they would have to notify building regs that they are now the BRPC? 
 

Building regs also says that where a new BRPC is appointed, they must review the arrangements made by the previous BRPC. This seems a bit onerous for say a sparky to review something a previous builder might have done, and I can imagine most smaller trades refusing to do this. 

 

Has anybody encountered this in practice, and how have people handled arranging individual trades under the new building regulations?

Edited December 4 by WannabeBob

[saveasteading]

You can be the principal contractor.

Who will call the the bco to a site inspection? You? Then it's you.

If you use a contractor you can shift the responsibility as you go along.

There are responsibility. Management, safety etc.

[WannabeBob]

I guess i’m slightly hung up on the “competence” requirement for the Principal Contractor role. Can I as a self builder who’s not in the building industry be deemed competent?

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, WannabeBob said:

hung up on the “competence

Quite rightly so. If you are not competent then you shouldn't do it.

If an accident happened then the principal contractor is going to be questioned.  If you have taken all reasonable precautions* then that is likely to be the end of it.

But setting up someone else to be it, then they have to be competent.

 

* mostly common sense and checking that any contractors are experienced, insured, and appear competent. Someone is responsible for risk assessments.

 

I'm on site now with groundworkers. We haven't done a formal risk assessment but we are competent and discuss stuff.

[-rick-]

So the question is what does a first time self builder have to do to become competent?

[JohnMo]

29 minutes ago, -rick- said:

So the question is what does a first time self builder have to do to become competent?

Go on to HSE website read what you made responsible for. Can you do the tasks required, are you going to on site, it's a yes/no gate you need to pass.

 

If you can't read the rules (I found them in less than 15 secs via Google), can't be bothered to read them, will be at work during the week, cannot coordinate or plan - then get someone in to do the role.

 

Pretty simple really.

[-rick-]

Thats for the HSE role, not the new building regs role isnt it?

 

A quick google says:

 

The Role of Principal Contractor

1. Oversee and manage the construction phase of the project to ensure compliance with Building Regulations.
2. Plan, manage, and monitor construction activities, ensuring all work meets regulatory standards.
3. Act as the central point of contact for cooperation among duty holders, liaising with the Principal Designer to implement design specifications correctly.
4. Possess a thorough understanding of construction processes, safety protocols, and regulatory requirements.

Point 4 seems particularly hard for any self builder who doesn't already work in the construction industry.

 

You can read the building regs cover to cover, go on health and safety courses and read/watch instructions on how to accomplish specific things. But is that sufficient?

Edited December 4 by -rick-

[WannabeBob]

Yeah the question is about Building Regs PC, which is distinct from the CDM role of the same name.

 

CDM PC is mostly concerned about the safety while the works are being carried out. BRPC is related to compliance to Building Regulations. There some overlap, but the BSA makes it clear that they are distinct. 

 

So for example if a fire were to happen (potentially years after the build was completed) and spread, and an investigation turns up that inadequate fire breaks were built, the BRPC would be brought into scrutiny. 

 

Edit: to be clear i’m not suggesting skirting around the competency requirement if unjustified. But all the advice so far about “taking on the role yourself” seems to be addressing the CDM role. And I’m also concerned about smaller trades refusing to take on the role of BRPC if you’re doing in stages and letting that contractor be the PC, as is another common advice regarding CDM.

 

So it looks to me that if you’re self building and not in the industry, realistically you need a main builder. 

 

Edited December 4 by WannabeBob