Getting frustrated with heating suppliers.

[MikeSharp01]

I know we, the forum in general have discussed this N times (where N is a very big number) but I thought I would start a new thread as a contemporary home for the same old chats we have had already but with a twist - see if you can spot it.

 

We already had the discussion about having to be at least as well educated as your supplier if you want to get the system sized & designed properly for your house. I have also come across a good volume of people who have the most awful stories to tell about installations. There is also the buffer tank / no buffer tank debacle among many other things. 

 

We have been going round the houses, trying to get three quotes to do ours. Here is where we are:

 

It's designed to be a passive house (PH) although we probably won't certify it. I did the design training and have built the whole thing around the PHPP with the architect.

 

The Brief:

 

We need someone to install and MCS certify, so we can take advantage of the grant, a very small list of things:

 

1. A UVC

2. A Heatpump

3. The plumbing for those two and our UFH which is already in the slab.

4. The controls for the above - no use of cloud systems and all systems OPEN.

 

Background Information: (Given to all the suppliers)

 

We already have the UFH pipes sticking out of the slab, 28mm Flow and return pipes from the utility room (UR) to the ASHP base, suitable cabling for almost any ASHP on the market from the ASHP  back to the UR with room in the duct for more if needs be. The UVC will be 2.1m from the UFH header around the utility room wall. 

 

The PHPP says we need 10.288 kWh/(m²a) the TFA (Treated Floor Area) is 139.4m² - the actual area is about 156m2 but TFA is the metric PHPP uses. Based on the above you can imagine we have good insulation - the air test is still to come but I will work at getting that well below 0.6 ACH (PH metric) SO I think I can stand by the PHPP outcome - it is roughly in line with other similar sized PH dwellings discussed on here.

 

They all received the PHPP verification page, a full set of the Building Control (BC) drawings, the U values for the walls, the roof & slab along with the average Uw value for the window and roof-light packages (Triple and Quadruple glazed respectively) and a layout plan of the utility room showing where everything needs to go and the dimensions allowed for.

 

To date we have had two indicative quotes (IQ) (Which are in themselves something of a conundrum because my understanding of a quote is that it is fixed - so not indicative.) 

 

The first company sent a chap to visit, he spent 10 minutes looking at the house and left - sending me a quote within 3 hours. No information about the units (brand / size / control ability / etc).

 

The second firm we found via the famous site who seem, judging by their Youtube channel, to know their stuff and are certifying installers who take their training. They did not visit but worked off, or not, the information package discussed above. I won't share the quote but  here are a couple of comparative sets of numbers to look at:

 

First - the PHPP verification page - (True this is as designed but all the insulation is in as are the windows - just air tightness to confirm) 

 

 

Then the heat load response calculation by the second potential supplier on which the 2nd quote is based - 

 

 

How can these two be so far apart? From my perspective the laws of physics tell me that if you put 8.4kW into the house I told them about you will definitely cook it! Yet the IQ (Oxymoron perhaps) seems to want to tell me that the house is 1.5 times as big as the drawings they were sent and consumes about 2.5 times as much energy as the best estimating system on the planet for such things (other of course than the JSHarris Spreadsheet) thinks it will.  They also want to fit a buffer tank and I have not allowed for this in the utility room - cos I could not see I would need one and still don't think I do!

 

So what have I missed - like a huge heat sink / cold bridge or three that I forgot to put into the PHPP, perhaps a couple of rooms I have forgotten I have built or their assumption that with all this insulation we are still just going to let the air out via trickle vents (big ones) rather than use the MVHR which is clearly shown in the drawings and accounted for in the PHPP?

 

It makes you wonder and so it looks to me like I need to kiss a few more frogs! Are we allowed to say such things here! I mean I don't mind if they turn into a princess or a prince I just want them to make me feel like they know what they are doing!  

[JohnMo]

Couple of things jump out,

 

floor area

Degree days, is huge, they are treating the degrees like a 'normal house'

 

If it's MCS, they will always ignore MVHR and apply Thier own room air change rates - the system doesn't account for any other than the normal.

[ProDave]

So much has been done already. the job is actually quite simple.

 

Have you actually costed forgetting the silly grants that force the use of MCS contractors. and just buy the kit and employ a trusted plumber and electrician, or just do it yourself?

[MikeSharp01]

12 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 

Have you actually costed forgetting the silly grants that force the use of MCS contractors. and just buy the kit and employ a trusted plumber and electrician, or just do it yourself?

Yes and it's about £4k + The VAT which I will get back at the end, so as long as the quote is below around £11k then I will go with it - as long as I trust then and their technology otherwise  not.

[SteamyTea]

9 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

There is also the buffer tank / no buffer tank debacle among many other things. 

I was thinking about this just yesterday.

Never seen a convincing argument either way.

[Bramco]

9 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Yes and it's about £4k + The VAT which I will get back at the end, so as long as the quote is below around £11k then I will go with it - as long as I trust then and their technology otherwise  not.

 

Mike, you might be asking the wrong people the wrong question.

Most heating system suppliers do run of the mill jobs and work to their 'rules of thumb', so if they always quote for a buffer tank for example, then you're going to get a buffer tak in your proposal - it's easier for them. They work to a formula - it's not worth their time doing some fancy (in their terms) special for a clued up client.

On the wrong question front, we had our plumber install the UVC, UFH buffer tank both with double immersions. They installed the manifold and connected it to the buffer tank. So something any plumber could quote for. And nothing covered by MCS.  We then got a quote for an ASHP, all MCS certified and with the grant application. So maybe you need to split the job into it's constituent parts and ask for 2 quotes. 

 

Although you will have to be quite persuasive to overcome the ASHP suppliers 'knowledge' which will have them telling you, you need a new UVC, a buffer tank and that your heating demand can't possibly be right....  A good example of this was someone on here, or maybe another forum bemoaning the fact that they had had great use out of a 2 immersion PV diverter for many years, but now Octopus were installing their ASHP, they were ripping the old UVC out and replacing it with a new tank with only one immersion, cos that's the way they do it. So only PV diversion to the top of the tank.

 

We gave our ASHP supplier a full room by room heat loss analysis done by our M+E engineer, they simply duplicated this in the MCS pack. After some persuasion, they accepted that their real role was supply and fit of the ASHP and controller and connecting said ASHP to the buffer tank and UVC with a 3 port valve - so it is possible.

 

Finally on point 4 above, you'll be lucky!! 

10 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

4. The controls for the above - no use of cloud systems and all systems OPEN.

 

You might have to take what you're given and then replace it if necessary - it almost certainly won't be open.

 

Simon

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, Bramco said:

You might have to take what you're given and then replace it if necessary - it almost certainly won't be open.

Your'e right I should have said openable shouldn't I. Thanks for the insights the whole thing is a pain but one thing I have learned is that I like the look of the KRONOTERM heat pumps which one of the companies has quoted to fit - expensive but nice, although I have no idea of their quality / performance the do quote the sound level which seems phenomenally low.

 

Image Source KRONOTERM documentation 09.03.2024

[SimonD]

All seems pretty worrying really. I guess you've asked the 2nd quote whether they've actually sent you the right quote and not got it mixed up with something else?

 

As a slight aside, if the company you refer to is the one I think it is, I always find myself watching the content with caution and won't rely on it without further due diligence. I tend to be even more cautious when such a private organisation that depends on hits/likes/views etc. starts promoting a de facto expert scheme.

[JamesPa]

About a quarter of me has some sympathy for the domestic heating industry.  For decades they have been able to get away with just shoving in a 28kW boiler to serve a typical 8kW load, leave it set to the defaults, put trvs on unbalanced oversized radiators, and it all works as far as the customer is concerned.  Granted it doesn't condense as it should, and the thermal gradients (in both time and space) are higher than they need to be, so its both less efficient and less comfortable than it could be, but energy was cheap and the customer is used to thermal gradients so doesn't care as long as they are warm.  Better still they can sell lots of 'intelligent' upgrades which purport to save money but probably save much less than would be saved by setting the system up optimally.

 

Then two things happen.  Energy prices rocket and there is a push to switch to a new technology which means you actually need to think about the sizing, radiator balancing and sundry other variables, and worst of all the customer now cares about and is conscious of the efficiency.

 

Its a massive shift, perhaps it's not entirely surprising that the industry has struggled.

 

OK that's the quarter of me that has sympathy.  The remaining three quarters says that the industry should,  by now, have recognised this and managed the situation properly and more fairly and openly to the customer.

 

On fairness many appear to have done so, but it also appears that others have not.

Edited March 9 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

10 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

The remaining three quarters says that the industry should,  by now, have recognised this and managed the situation properly and more fairly and openly

It says to me the plumbing and heating engineer apprenticeship is p**s poor and pretty much always has been or they have been trained with skills and choose just to use rules of thumbs etc because it's easy.

 

Understanding heat loss and boiler, radiator and pipe sizing, condensing theory should all be bread and butter skill sets. Just because heat pumps came on the scene shouldn't really have changed anything - it's just another heat source.

[PNAmble]

4 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

It says to me the plumbing and heating engineer apprenticeship is p**s poor

Another way of looking at this is to stop assuming that plumbing / electrics etc are a minimum wage job and not a skill.    This forum seems to assume doing plumbing or electrics is a ‘self build’ job and should be paid accordingly.  

[JamesPa]

1 minute ago, JohnMo said:

It says to me the plumbing and heating engineer apprenticeship is p**s poor and pretty much always has been or they have been trained with skills and choose just to use rules of thumbs etc because it's easy.

 

Understanding heat loss and boiler, radiator and pipe sizing, condensing theory should all be bread and butter skill sets. Just because heat pumps came on the scene shouldn't really have changed anything - it's just another heat source.

As I say three quarters of me agrees.  However it helps to understand another perspective.

 

We have a deep seated cultural problem in the UK (I'm not sure it's unique to the UK) that plumbing, electrics and most other engineering skills with a practical side are perceived as inferior to desk based roles in finance, and pay and/or are perceived to pay less. So, unsurprisingly, many of our more capable people, who would relish the change as an opportunity to develop new skills, choose to avoid them.  

[JamesPa]

12 minutes ago, PNAmble said:

Another way of looking at this is to stop assuming that plumbing / electrics etc are a minimum wage job and not a skill.    This forum seems to assume doing plumbing or electrics is a ‘self build’ job and should be paid accordingly.  

That's a comment in two halves.  Tha first I agree with, absolutely plumbing and electrics done properly are much, much more than a minimum wage skill.

 

The second half not so sure.  All to often I find myself doing DIY plumbing (in particular) or electrics (less so) because I'm fed up with having inane arguments, that have no basis in engineering or physics, with people who obviously haven't got a scooby and/or don't want to quote for the job that needs doing.  

 

However I grant it's chicken and egg.  The cultural problem I refer to above is a severe disincentive for the most highly skilled people to get involved in either trade (and indeed many others).

Edited March 9 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

11 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

We have a deep seated cultural problem in the UK (I'm not sure it's unique to the UK) that plumbing, electrics and most other engineering skills with a practical side are perceived as inferior

 

 

15 minutes ago, PNAmble said:

Another way of looking at this is to stop assuming that plumbing / electrics etc are a minimum wage job and not a skill.    This forum seems to assume doing plumbing or electrics is a ‘self build’ job and should be paid accordingly.  

I don't disagree. But they all do apprenticeships, if joining those trades as a 16 or 17 year old, those apprenticeship would have taken 3 to 4 years. Why aren't they learning these basic skills or are they, and they choose not use them, as a rule of thumb is simple, even if its wrong or inappropriate.

 

I did most of my plumbing because I could and what I didn't know, enjoyed the learning curve. Not because I didn't want to pay a fair wage.  Electrics not interested in the subject, so paid the professionals for everything start to finish. They charged me their normal rate - used same company for the last 10 years, on 4 house renovations and a new build.

 

 

 

 

[Roger440]

22 hours ago, JohnMo said:

 

 

I don't disagree. But they all do apprenticeships, if joining those trades as a 16 or 17 year old, those apprenticeship would have taken 3 to 4 years. Why aren't they learning these basic skills or are they, and they choose not use them, as a rule of thumb is simple, even if its wrong or inappropriate.

 

I did most of my plumbing because I could and what I didn't know, enjoyed the learning curve. Not because I didn't want to pay a fair wage.  Electrics not interested in the subject, so paid the professionals for everything start to finish. They charged me their normal rate - used same company for the last 10 years, on 4 house renovations and a new build.

 

 

 

 

 

Where are these 3-4 apprenticships? Like i did in fact.

 

Nowhere to be seen. Which is no doubt part of the problem.

 

 

[ReedRichards]

On 09/03/2024 at 08:01, SteamyTea said:

I was thinking about this just yesterday.

Never seen a convincing argument either way.

 

The most convincing argument for a buffer tank is if your warranty requires you to have one.  My warranty obliges me to have a buffer tank.  As someone who had his entire heat pump replaced under warranty after 3 years of service, I would caution against doing something that might void the warranty.   

Edited March 10 by ReedRichards

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, ReedRichards said:

The most convincing argument depends on whether your warranty requires you to have one

That is a better reason than any I have heard so far.

[SimonD]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

That is a better reason than any I have heard so far.

 

There's certainly a lot of debate about it. Here is a video that I think takes a reasonable approach to it:

 

 

[mk1_man]

I have been having similar experience / frustrations with obtaining quotes for ashp.  We are currently heavily renovating / extending a 1960's detached property. It is now circa 150m2 ground, 100m2 1st floor. All floors have been dug out and then new slab, insulation, underfloor (16mm @ 200 centres) , liquid screed etc.  We have also installed overlay underfloor on 1st floor but only ground floor heating active at moment and bedrooms fine with no heat.  Majority of walls are Plasmor Fibolite (0.24 - brilliant blocks) on internal and external skins, 100mm cavity with 75mm insulation, air tight parge coat and then 40mm closed cell xps foam board glued to block and then plasterboard glued to insulation.  Roof is warm with 300mm pir insulation under osb skin.   We also have mvhr being installed - project on going. Triple glazed Internorm Passive level windows and doors throughout.  Basically aiming for as close to Passive i.e. lots of attention to sealing everything.

 

The generic heat pump suppliers don't seem to take much of this into consideration and seem to be able to do a heat loss in a few mins with a couple of questions.  Heat loss comes back around 11Kw, I challenge this and say our existing 19kw viessman boiler runs at 35mm flow and majority of the time modulates down to around 20% i.e. 3.8kw    Personally I would like to install a Vaillant 7kw hp but nobody will budge.  I have also built house with heat pump in mind and have already installed with brand new 28mm copper flow and return to boiler, heat pump would be fitted the other side of the cavity wall to where boiler is now, electrics are also in as is the 2 core comms cable,  we have an existing 250 litre UVC in loft,  so a really simple job.  Quotes are coming in at around £14k before grant.  When I challenge them about max 2 days on site for literally £7k of labour they just say " thats the way it is "

 

I have recently found a company that do MCS installs under an umbrella scheme. They do the calcs, specify heat pump, do the grant application etc but then let your local plumber or even the self builder to install the system.  They then commission it afterwards.  just waiting on quote but keeping fingers crossed that this is a common sense approach and much more cost effective approach for may people who are self building etc - They are called  Alto Energy

[JohnMo]

Why not cut out the middle man get the heat pump you want and a local plumber to install? Could be cheaper than the grant from the sounds of it.

[JamesPa]

15 minutes ago, mk1_man said:

Personally I would like to install a Vaillant 7kw hp but nobody will budge. 

 

15 minutes ago, mk1_man said:

The generic heat pump suppliers don't seem to take much of this into consideration and seem to be able to do a heat loss in a few mins with a couple of questions

The few minutes is just to give a quote.  Most will do a 3hr survey once you sign on the dotted line and then requote. thats pretty much a requirement of MCS.   It will still, most likely, be wrong though.

 

You could try doing the calcs yourself, doing a sense check against your consumption and presenting it to the Vaillant authorised installers in your area telling them that this is what is required and you are seeking a quote for this.  You can acknowledge that they might have to check it according to MCS rules, but you can also explain that you wont be deviating unless they can prove absolutely that its necessary.  It might work, or alternatively they might be turned off by what they regard as a 'smart-arse'.

 

If your current boiler spends most of its time at 3.8kW thats like mine.  My house has a design temp (-2) consumption of 7.5kW and the boiler spends most of its time at 4kW.  Two MCS bods, each following the full 3 hr survey, have estimated 16kW.   Three principal things they got wrong and the contribution to the error are

 

• They ignored fabric upgrades that weren't visible even though I told them about them repeatedly (~4.5kW)
• They double load by including room to room losses but not room to room gains (~1kW)
• They assumed ACH~2/hr.  I dont actually know what mine is but I can get a 'spreadsheet calculation' to match the measured 7.5kW by assuming 0.5ACH (~3kW)

 

Edited March 11 by JamesPa

[Bramco]

1 hour ago, mk1_man said:

The generic heat pump suppliers don't seem to take much of this into consideration and seem to be able to do a heat loss in a few mins with a couple of questions. 

 

Our types of construction are atypical, so they just apply their rule of thumb which includes a big margin of error - they know lots of clients are disappointed with heat pumps, so the answer is much bigger than you think Mr. Client.....    3 bed semi X kW, 4 bed detached Y kW.  And you wouldn't believe the admin for an MCS install which bumps up the labour to £7k for 2 days work....    Sadly there are enough punters out there who for whatever reason, environmentally feel good factor, one-upmanship etc. will sign on the dotted line.

 

2 hours ago, mk1_man said:

I have recently found a company that do MCS installs under an umbrella scheme. They do the calcs, specify heat pump, do the grant application etc but then let your local plumber or even the self builder to install the system.  They then commission it afterwards.  just waiting on quote but keeping fingers crossed that this is a common sense approach and much more cost effective approach for may people who are self building etc

 

Hope this works out - sounds like an ideal offering for self builders - they could get busy. It would be interesting to know what the quote is like - without going into details of course.

 

It does make you wonder whether more suppliers will head down this route - there aren't enough skilled tradespeople out there, so this type of approach could well work.

 

Simon

[BotusBuild]

Liking the approach of Alto Energy also. Will be interested in what they come back with also.

[JamesPa]

4 hours ago, Bramco said:

I have recently found a company that do MCS installs under an umbrella scheme They do the calcs, specify heat pump, do the grant application etc but then let your local plumber or even the self builder do the install

Personally I think this is an important component of the market for the future.  Design and commissioning, particularly for retrofits, is a totally different skill to installation. Some will want to and be capable of both, others would be better specialising.

 

Separating the two makes perfect sense and there are  parallels in other sectors.

 

The only caveat I would add is that the designers/commissioners need to get their hands dirty from time to time.  There is nothing like being bent double on your back under a sink grazing your knuckles to remind you that plumbing involves some on the ground compromise (ps my plumbing experience is DIY only).

[mk1_man]

Hopefully get quote back soon, they are taking their time to do the heat loss so hopefully that may be a good sign. i will post findings once they arrive.  I was certainly impressed with their approach to me installing myself when we discussed option on the phone, they even do free vendor training so you can still access longer warranties etc  

 

If it wasn't for trying to access BUS grant then I would simply purchase the heat pump and install myself keeping the boiler in situ for possibly the hot water heating.  My Viessmann boiler is currently setup as a 4 pipe system anyway, 22mm hot temp circuit for uvc and a 28mm circuit at low temp for underfloor.