Mobile signals frustrated by house wall insulation

[Auchlossen]

I have poor-to-nil mobile reception in my house, with [and due to?] wood fibre insulation and triple glazing. Usually texts will come in, but not go out unless you stand by the Utility  room window. As for calls, no chance within the house.

I have line of sight to the mast where signals purport to come from/go to.

Is there a solution to this problem, which is irritating, even for a low calibre user like myself?

Could I pick up the signal outside with some hardware, and re-transmit it within the house?

Suggestions in simple language please.

[Nickfromwales]

A bit here

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

A bit more

 

 

[ProDave]

I am surprised you think the wood fibre is the problem.

 

Our last house had poor reception inside which I have no doubt was the result of the foil backed plasterboard. but our new house the signal inside is no worse than outside (still not good, but it works)  I might still install a repeater to boost it though.

 

 

[reddal]

Hi,

 

We also found there was initially zero mobile signal inside the house - despite having good signal outside. I always assumed it was as a result of using a metal lath as part of the wall build up (under lime render) - however it could be insulation as others suggested.

 

We bought a mobile repeater from these people - https://www.mobilerepeater.co.uk/ . It has an antennae on the outside of the house which connects to a box inside the house which rebroadcasts the signal.

 

We bought an entry level one - which worked, but didn't give good signal throughout the house - so we then bought a much more powerful version, and its been fine since.

 

It seems like this problem is very common in modern houses. We should either :

• work out what the real causes are and advise people how to avoid the problem, or
• accept its inevitable but give new builders clear advice to expect it and how to counter with repeaters.

Nowadays having good mobile signal inside your house isnt just a nice-to-have, its considered a basic human right by many :).

 

- reddal

[Jeremy Harris]

Technically, the majority of these repeaters are illegal for use in the UK.  There are a small number of certified units available, primarily (or only) available from some network providers that are legal, but the vast majority are classified as unlicensed radio transmitting equipment and their use may render the person using them to confiscation of the equipment plus a fine under the Wireless Telegraphy Act.

 

That's not to say that I didn't buy and use one myself - but I did so knowing that it was illegal and that I was taking a risk.  The risk was the same as when I used illegal CB over 35 years ago, though, and I never knew of anyone who got prosecuted for doing that (although some did, I'm sure).

 

One issue is that the mobile network operators can, and will, shut off your contract if they discover that you're using an unlicensed repeater.  Technically they can discover this fairly easily if  they take the time to do some detailed analysis, but in practice I've never heard of them actually doing it and would guess that they have more important things to do than go around trying to catch people using these things if they are not causing a problem.

 

The latter point is worth being careful about.  These units can cause a problem if the two antennas are too close to each other.  There's a host of technical reasons why this happens, including the fact that none of them are approved and so may well not have the required level of out-of-band rejection.  What happens if the internal antenna and external antenna are too close is that there can be feedback, and, without going into the technicalities, if this happens the unit stops working plus there is a greater chance that the network operator may detect that a repeater is being used.

 

If buying one, then you just need to be aware that if it is not a unit specifically approved by a network operator, with a valid and genuine CE mark, then it is almost certainly illegal to use.  It isn't illegal to sell these units in the UK (as the perfectly legal website @reddal shows) nor is it illegal to own one as long as it isn't powered up and operating.  The offence occurs as soon as you apply power to the unit, when you're then technically operating an unlicensed, and non-licensable, radio transmitter.

 

They do vary a fair bit in quality and performance, as all these units are made in China, and some of the cheaper ones are not that great.  The usual places selling these units are awash with the things, and often the actual transceiver/booster boxes are the same from many different sellers, the main difference in terms of performance is the quality of the cable and the antenna.  I found that the cable supplied with the unit I bought was garbage, it was very lossy at the high frequency band that EE uses (the 1800 MHz band).  The unit was designed to work on this band, but was fitted with the cheaper cable that would just about have been OK on the other, lower frequency, band used in the UK (the 800 MHz band).  Changing the cable and connectors to LMR240 made a massive difference to performance, more than doubling the apparent signal strength.

 

Changing the crap cable for decent stuff is not something for the faint hearted, though, especially for the high band kit, where you're dealing with microwave frequencies that need very good cable and connectors to work well.  If you get a decent signal outside with your phone, then the chances are all you need is a simple to install kit with omnidirectional external and internal antennas.  If you only get a weak signal on your phone outside, then investing in a kit with a decent directional antenna outside, and taking the time to align it properly with your nearest mast, will give better performance.

 

I used to run a high gain yagi antenna, fitted to the top of a 12ft pole that was bolted to the gable end of our old house, in order to get a usable signal.  At the new house not even that gives a reliable signal, as the hills between where we are and the nearest mast are just too high.

 

Also, there is a very big difference between network providers when it comes to indoor performance.  All the networks that use the 1800 MHz band will perform worse indoors than the networks that use the 800 MHz band.  This is down to the physics of radio propagation and the fact that it is far easier to screen high frequencies than lower frequencies.  So, if you're using a provider that operates on the high band, try and see if you can get someone with a phone working on the low band to visit and check their phone performance.  There's a chance that that may work OK without a repeater.

 

Finally, there is a legal way around this problem.  Several companies now make devices that allow your phone to connect and work via your broadband connection when in the house.  These generally seem to work well, if you have a decent broadband connection, and are a legal way to get around having no mobile signal inside the house, for those that feel a bit concerned about breaking the law, even if the risk of getting caught is pretty small.

Edited October 3, 2017 by JSHarris
typo

[reddal]

8 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Technically, the majority of these repeaters are illegal for use in the UK.  There are a small number of certified units available, primarily (or only) available from some network providers that are legal, but the vast majority are classified as unlicensed radio transmitting equipment and their use may render the person using them to confiscation of the equipment plus a fine under the Wireless Telegraphy Act.

 

Thats interesting - I had no idea there was a legal issue. The current exemptions seem to be here - https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/84970/ir-2030-july-2017.pdf . Loads of glorious techy detail in there - but I can't see anything obviously exempting these mobile repeaters so looks like you are right.

 

So how are people supposed to build houses that have a mobile signal? We all obsess over how to best provide other services into our houses (heating, electricity, hot water etc) - I think mobile signal deserves the same attention.

 

If insulation is causing the problem - is there a type of insulation that doesn't? I know if I'd had the choice of a different insulation material that was a bit more expensive but allowed me to have a mobile signal - I'd have gone for it.

[Jeremy Harris]

The companies selling this kit are using the same loophole in the Wireless Telegraphy Act that the sellers of illegal CB equipment used back in the late 70's/early 80's, that it's legal to sell or own equipment that cannot legally be turned on and used.

 

It seems that even something like cellulose can block high frequency RF pretty well - our WiFi doesn't work outside the new house, for example.  At our old house I used to be able to get a WiFi signal in the car parked on the drive, I can't at the new house.  Part of that is that newer glazing is sputtered with a very thin metal layer internally, to reflect back long wavelength IR, and this also works well to screen out radio signals.

 

There is a big difference between mobile frequencies, though, as mentioned above.  When we were working on the house the guys with phones working on the O2 or Vodafone low band were just about able to get a signal outside, those of us using EE on the high band couldn't, despite the masts being collocated, with roughly similar antenna patterns (it's a rural area so pretty much all the local masts are set up to be omnidirectional).

 

If you're currently using an 1800 MHz band phone network, then it might be worth trying to get someone with an 800 MHz phone connection to see how it works.  The frequency effect is quite marked; for example we cannot get DAB radio reception (which uses frequencies of around 200 MHz) but can receive FM radio OK (which uses frequencies of around 100 MHz).

Edited October 3, 2017 by JSHarris
typo

[curlewhouse]

You can always get an internet connected booster - EE and Vodafone do them that I know of. We've had them before and whilst they did not work "up to 100m outside the house" as we'd been told, they did work really well inside the house. 

Vodafone also runs a scheme whereby if you are in a very rural area you can have a small repeater of theirs on your property FOC (very small, not a "mast" type thing) they will do that. At the time I saw it I wasn't on Vodafone so never explored what the advantages to the householder concerned were beyond not paying for it) which provides service very locally (i.e maybe your village area). 

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by curlewhouse

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, curlewhouse said:

You can always get an internet connected booster - EE and Vodafone do them that I know of. We've had them before and whilst they did not work 100m around the house as we'd been told, they did work really well inside the house. 

 

 

If you have also got a decent internet connection.................

 

The rural problem that afflicts mobile phone, TV, DAB etc reception also afflicts broadband, sadly, so there are some of us who can't stream video over the internet, as the speeds are too low.  For us, getting a box to allow the mobile phones to receive data indoors via the broadband connection wouldn't work, except for voice calls, and in that case we've be better using the landline.

[curlewhouse]

Yes, no DAB here at all and no fibre for us (though since we are now the only folks on ADSL at the exchange we get respectable performance really) and mobile data non existent - unless I climb on the scaffolding to the very top and hold the phone up as high as I can - then it works! .  

[Stones]

11 hours ago, Auchlossen said:

I have poor-to-nil mobile reception in my house, with [and due to?] wood fibre insulation and triple glazing. Usually texts will come in, but not go out unless you stand by the Utility  room window. As for calls, no chance within the house.

I have line of sight to the mast where signals purport to come from/go to.

Is there a solution to this problem, which is irritating, even for a low calibre user like myself?

Could I pick up the signal outside with some hardware, and re-transmit it within the house?

Suggestions in simple language please.

 

How about celebrating the fact you cannot get a signal, sit back and enjoy the silence and lack of interruption? 

[Gone West]

23 hours ago, reddal said:

It seems like this problem is very common in modern houses. We should either :

• work out what the real causes are and advise people how to avoid the problem, or
• accept its inevitable but give new builders clear advice to expect it and how to counter with repeaters.

 

It's an interesting point where reception is good outside but poor inside. For instance I don't have any problem at all with mobile reception inside my new house. I can also use my cordless landline phone inside the new house from my bungalow next door. Perhaps we should create a list of new house, wall construction type, along with mobile reception. I could start it off with 50mm high density Rockwool and 350mm Icynene and good reception.

[SteamyTea]

@PeterStarck Would need to correlate it with frequency and distance from mast, as well as any local topological oddities.

[Gone West]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

@PeterStarck Would need to correlate it with frequency and distance from mast, as well as any local topological oddities.

If it's possible to measure signal strength outside and inside the house wouldn't that be enough to see what effect the house construction was having?

[Jeremy Harris]

I no longer have access to kit to do this sort of measurement, but can say that 300mm of cellulose inside a timber built house, plus 3G glazing that has two panes with a low emissivity (metal sputtered) coating seems to have a fairly high level of signal attenuation.  The best I can do in terms of a semi-quantitive measure is with the WiFi signal. The distance and level from the router in our old house (brick and block construction, with block internal walls) to the place where I park my car are around the same.  The routers are similar in terms of power.  I can get a very good WiFi signal sat in the car outside our old house, but a barely usable one, that drops out often, when sat in the car outside the new house.

 

My suspicion is that a thick layer of cellulose is a pretty good attenuator for high frequency RF.  We don't have foil-backed insulation or plasterboard, so it can only really be the insulation and glazing that's blocking the signal.  Opening the fully glazed front door makes a big difference, with the WiFi signal in the car increasing to a usable level, so it seems that the glazing also blocks RF pretty well.

[SteamyTea]

35 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

If it's possible to measure signal strength outside and inside the house wouldn't that be enough to see what effect the house construction was having?

Possibly.

I don't know enough about RF stuff to judge, it has a habit of bouncing around.  I would think that you need to do many repeatable tests to get a robust result, and then it would only be a correlation, which is not causation.

As an example, I have 4 towers very close to me that I can connect to (all less than half a mile).

I get a full signal inside and out side, am connected 100% of the time.  So regardless of my construction type, I cannot contribute to this sort of test.

[Jeremy Harris]

That's a good point.  We have a single mast 1.2 miles  away, but behind a big hill.  The next nearest mast is 1.6 miles away, but behind two much higher hills.  I used to be just about able to get a signal, on a good day (bearing in mind that mobile signal propagation is quite heavily influenced by the weather) in two locations on site, one over by where the garage now sits, the other on top of the scaffolding at the East end of the house (nearest the mast).  Neither were usable for making calls, the best I could usually hope for was a text or message alert.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by JSHarris

[ProDave]

4 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

If it's possible to measure signal strength outside and inside the house wouldn't that be enough to see what effect the house construction was having?

 

A lot of phones, including I think most Android phones will give you a reading of the signal strength if you drill down deep enough in the settings.

[Temp]

 

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 10:29, curlewhouse said:

You can always get an internet connected booster - EE and Vodafone do them that I know of. We've had them before and whilst they did not work "up to 100m outside the house" as we'd been told, they did work really well inside the house. 

 

Someone told me they have the nerve to charge you for calls made over your broadband connection. Is that right?

[SteamyTea]

Not sure if they charge.

But there are free internet services, Skype, Viber, Whatsapp.

I am surprised that more people don't use the IP phone system more.  I guess that there is something comforting about a real number going though a real network and getting charged for it.

[Gone West]

Yes I've got VoIP in the new house via the WiMAX connection. Won't have a landline in there at all.

[PeterW]

+1 as I am also having only broadband and then will use my current VOIP provider who provider geographic numbers. 

[reddal]

I use VOIP for all my outgoing calls from the house. We have a landline - but only use it for broadband.

 

However I still need a mobile signal inside the house. People have my mobile number and not typically my home (voip) number, and send me txt's to my mobile. If the mobile didn't work in the house it would be very inconvenient.

 

Outside my house you typically get a full-bars mobile signal - inside (without the repeater) you get nothing at all. I don't have the specs our insulation anymore - but it was a variant of this system - https://www.oakwrights.co.uk/oakwrights-design-and-build/encapsulation/wright-wall-natural. On top of that there is a build up of metal lath and lime render - and I always suspected the metal lath wasn't helping - acting as a faraday cage.