Supporting 250kg steel beam on nothing?

[knobblycats]

I have a steel beam going in over a 4600mm opening, each end of the beam will be sitting on the concrete core of the ICF.

 

However, each end of the beam will have welded studs, in order to tie them structurally to the concrete core of the ICF. This means we need to pour the concrete with the beam in situ (instead of adding the beam after).

 

The ICF is XPS polystyrene and won't support the beam by itself.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can safely support the steel beam before and during the pour so it doesn't move or fall.

Edited March 4, 2024 by knobblycats

[knobblycats]

Photo added!

[Moonshine]

how long will it be up there unsupported before the concrete goes off?

 

a couple of genie lifts? Scaffold tower? it must be a meaty beam if its 54kg per linear metre

 

Cheaper options are probably available with variable levels of safety

Edited March 4, 2024 by Moonshine

[Redbeard]

  On 04/03/2024 at 11:09, Moonshine said:

a couple of genie lifts? Scaffold tower? it must be a meaty beam if its 54kg per linear metre

 

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2 scaff towers if you have access to some. Depends how much time you want to spend on it. You could make perfectly adequate and safe supports out of constructional timber which you may already have on site for later use. A few joists and offcuts and 12mm bolts and the job's a good'un, but slower than a scaff tower!

[joe90]

Make two timber 3 legged stands (think axle stands) cross braced and you get to use the timber afterwards for something else.

[Pocster]

Acro props . Cheap to buy - with some wedges so they don’t drift .

I had to do this for a large concrete ceiling . Rather than hire 50 of them I bought them . Left them in situ for 3 months - SE said 1 month was enough . But you know ….

[Conor]

  On 04/03/2024 at 11:01, knobblycats said:

However, each end of the beam will have welded studs, in order to tie them structurally to the concrete core of the ICF. This means we need to pour the concrete with the beam in situ (instead of adding the beam after).

 

 

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There's a better, safer way of doing this. Walls are cast, beam set in place, chemical resin anchors used to fix the beam in vertically to the concrete. Horizontal lengths of rebar welded on the flanges and to the starter bars in the concrete. Next concrete pour covers the lot. That's how all of ours were done.

[markc]

1st question would be - how will you lift this into place? A 5m (almost) 250kg beam isn’t like boosting a big lintel into place. The method of lifting will then determine the best (safest/most economical etc) support method.

[Russell griffiths]

[Pocster]

  On 04/03/2024 at 13:02, markc said:

1st question would be - how will you lift this into place? A 5m (almost) 250kg beam isn’t like boosting a big lintel into place. The method of lifting will then determine the best (safest/most economical etc) support method.

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I’d crane that in . Have before . Otherwise it’s a heavy mofo situation 

[saveasteading]

  On 04/03/2024 at 12:52, Conor said:

chemical resin anchors used to fix the beam in vertically to the concrete.

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This. all problems gone.

[SimonD]

  On 04/03/2024 at 15:12, Russell griffiths said:

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Proper self-build solution! Kwikstage is just magic for everything 😁 

[JamesP]

Genie for the lift and kwikstage for the pour.

[Conor]

We hired a telehandler for a day to lift ours in to place. You have to allow for the length of the lifting straps and reach over the scaffolding (you'll want your scaffolding up to first lift before your first pour) a 7m one will do the job for first floor level, you'd want a 14m for roof steels, as an example.

[Adsibob]

I have a mate who can deadlift 160kg. Two of him?

[Moonshine]

  On 04/03/2024 at 12:52, Conor said:

 

There's a better, safer way of doing this. Walls are cast, beam set in place, chemical resin anchors used to fix the beam in vertically to the concrete. Horizontal lengths of rebar welded on the flanges and to the starter bars in the concrete. Next concrete pour covers the lot. That's how all of ours were done.

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i prefer this option.

 

get the concrete in so it has something to rest on, and a structure you can work off. get two genie lifts to get it into space nice and easy and chemical anchor in.

 

Having 250kg up high and not supported properly is not a good thing.

[Russell griffiths]

TBH 250 kg is bugger all. 
125kg each end, you could build a couple of timber studs screwed to the icf at each end. 
a 200x48 stud in compression will hold that up no problem 

small 4x4 scaffolding tower in the middle for double safety 

 

I personally would put the concrete in first, but if you don’t want to deviate from your drawings then that’s up to you. 
 

I would have questioned this detail long ago. 

[saveasteading]

  On 04/03/2024 at 11:01, knobblycats said:

the beam will be sitting on the concrete core of the ICF.

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Permission to worry you?

If that was a blockwork wall then you would need a precast pad-stone to sit on it  and support the beam.

 

Your concrete infill will be longer than a block so that is a plus. Presumably this beam sits exactly on the concrete and none on the eps.

But that is a heavy beam and likely to be supporting a lot of load. 

Has this been considered/discussed?

 

 

[joe90]

  On 04/03/2024 at 17:54, saveasteading said:

Has this been considered/discussed?

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I was just thinking the same, surely an SE has designed this ? (I would want this done!).

[saveasteading]

  On 04/03/2024 at 11:01, knobblycats said:

the beam will have welded studs

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Sounds like a design. So there may even be a drawing of this detail.

 

The purpose of a padstone is to spread the load over  more than one block, (perhaps not an issue here), and to provide precise level control, and to provide a flat surface for the direct seating of the beam.

But the beam  wouldn't normally need to be bolted down.

I'd be surprised if an SE didn't mention this in any way, even to say 'no pad stone required because / but  do this.....

[knobblycats]

  On 04/03/2024 at 15:12, Russell griffiths said:

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I like this, thanks Russell!

[knobblycats]

  On 04/03/2024 at 17:54, saveasteading said:

Permission to worry you?

If that was a blockwork wall then you would need a precast pad-stone to sit on it  and support the beam.

 

Your concrete infill will be longer than a block so that is a plus. Presumably this beam sits exactly on the concrete and none on the eps.

But that is a heavy beam and likely to be supporting a lot of load. 

Has this been considered/discussed?

 

 

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Here's some more info to put your mind at ease:

 

Each end of the beam will be sitting on a rebar reinforced concrete column. The concrete strength of the wall itself (RC35) should be similar to that used in padstones, and the whole ground floor is monolithic - a single piece of concrete. 

 

Otherwise, it's a good point to raise, and I appreciate you looking out for those of us who may not know much! 

[Russell griffiths]

  On 04/03/2024 at 20:01, knobblycats said:

I like this, thanks Russell!

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Cool, that ones twice the size of yours, yours will be a breeze. 

[joe90]

  On 04/03/2024 at 20:14, knobblycats said:

Each end of the beam will be sitting on a rebar reinforced concrete column.

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So is this cast before you position the beam?

[George]

Chemical anchor or some sort of steel anchor plate that can be cast in then bolted to the beam.

 

It is physically possible to prop the beam insitu (250kg - about a rugby front row) but seems riskier would would get in the way of the pour.

 

I also wonder what is it for? In masonry, you just rely on friction for holding the beams in place. I do spec a anchor bolt but that's really only for temporary stability, in the permanent condition any tie forces would be generated through the floor plate and friction. I wonder if it's a hangover detail from seismic regions.