Use your car as a battery?

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Think whatever the individual does will help something, but it is really small and possibly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The steel plant that is closing in Wales is going to reduce CO2 emmisions of the UK by around 20% on its own.  One plant!

Yes BUT.

 

The replacement plant will be electric.  That is a lot of extra green electricity needed if it is not to simply shift the emissions to a power station instead.

 

AND that will only recycle old steel, not make new virgin steel from ore.  We probably still need that new virgin steel somewhere in the world, so it is almost certain that new steel will just be made somewhere else, another country getting the jobs and the profit, while being "blamed" for the polution.

 

But not to worry, it helps us meet our target so none of that metters.

[FuerteStu]

35 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

What I find more interesting is that the historically bad polluters are still the bad polluters.

 

Yes but the factor that isn't considered in these two images is consumption vs exports

 

America and most of Europe drive a lot more of other countries CO2 production in modern times. Through their manufacturing,shipping, mining and refining. 

 

The true picture is a lot more alarming, it's greenwashing to say we're improving our own gardens by desolating our neighbours. 

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, FuerteStu said:

The true picture is a lot more alarming, it's greenwashing to say we're improving our own gardens by desolating our neighbours

You are telling someone that studied this 2 decades ago, why we have the terms embodied energy and embodied carbon, it is so we can easily compare different items made in different places.

Per Capita CO₂ emissions is the best way to see the overall picture.

[joe90]

21 minutes ago, FuerteStu said:

it's greenwashing to say we're improving our own gardens by desolating our neighbours. 

I disagree, it was the west that started the Industrial Revolution (pollution) so we should be the first to try and reverse that, with regards “desolating our neighbours” unless you advocate isolationism how can we control what countries like China do?, yes we could stop importing their stuff but who would pay the price.? And who would be willing to do that. As said before change will happen slowly and I do believe it’s heading in the right direction. 

[FuerteStu]

15 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

You are telling someone that studied this 2 decades ago, why we have the terms embodied energy and embodied carbon, it is so we can easily compare different items made in different places.

Per Capita CO₂ emissions is the best way to see the overall picture.

Even per capita doesn't really give a clear picture. 

 

A huge percentage of people in India and Russia living a lifestyle decades behind the rest offsetting the highly destructive few. 

 

I just think we need global education about consumption. If we all realised the real cost of what we use daily and reduce it, it negates all possible government policies, or corporate greed. 

[FuerteStu]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

 how can we control what countries like China do?, yes we could stop importing their stuff but who would pay the price.? 

Short term or long term, the planet will benefit from a massive reduction in consumption of products from China. 

 

What is made there is often sold at a comparative loss, purely for global economic reasons. It causes massive destruction to the environment to be reliant upon fast fashion, cheap electronics and disposable junk. 

 

When the industrial revolution started, we had no understanding of the implications and disastrous effects. 

We should be leading the green revolution, we're dragging our heels because it will cost more now, but it will cost MORE in the future. 

 

Not Isolationism, I'm suggesting consuming less, and becoming more self sufficient. 

 

It's about education if those who consume. The more people that see the results of their consumption, the better it is for the planet. 

[joe90]

1 minute ago, FuerteStu said:

Short term or long term, the planet will benefit from a massive reduction in consumption of products from China. 

So you don’t buy Chinese goods?

[Crofter]

11 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

That was me.

 

Niether of those cars is close to capable of a 200 mile round trip commute. If my wife cant get back home from work, what will i do for dinner? These are imporrtant questions!

 

The other issue at the sub £5k end is battery condition. If its very poor or defective, the car is scrap. Which can be a problem if you can only just afford £5k in the first place.

 

I note that the HOL commitee report picks up on this and talks about some industry standards such that the consumer isnt buying a dud. Sure, you can by a dud ICE too, but theres little on those thats likely to scrap the car for a single fault. But the report was correct, its a barrier to ownership further down the food chain. 

 

That would be main concern. And ive spent 20 years in the trade, including 15 running an automotive workshop. As a consumer, i dont have the confidence that i can establish that what im buying isnt just scrap looking for a mug to buy it at his level of the market.

 

The reality is, another corsa is the best solution.

Ah I missed the 200 mile requirement. You'll have to wait a few more years to get that at £5k.

As I understand it, modern EVs are seeing very little battery degradation, although much depends on how they're been treated. Don't they give an indication of the battery health? That's something I've seen on adverts, but maybe it's to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

If I come across as a techno-optimist it's probably because for the past three years I've been living off grid on a boat, powered by PV and lithium. The whole project was about £2k to put together. It's infuriating to see other people not even bothering to explore what this technology can do, and they continue to run generators. Even if you don't give a crap about the environment, or noise, the cost of fuel and servicing alone quickly makes PV+storage the cheapest option.

 

Returning to the original question of using a car as a battery: the prices I see quoted for domestic batteries are very high. I built mine for about £120/kWh. Is anybody using DIY batteries on domestic projects? Are there any hurdles to doing this?

[FuerteStu]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

So you don’t buy Chinese goods?

I try not to buy ANY goods I don't need. 

 

And when I do buy something, I consider something longer lasting and locally produced (relatively) to be more important than the price. 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

8 minutes ago, FuerteStu said:

locally produced

Why do you do that?

[FuerteStu]

21 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Why do you do that?

Because if something is made locally, it doesn't need shipping half way across the planet. 

 

Even if its produced 500 miles away, it's better than 5000.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, FuerteStu said:

Because if something is made locally, it doesn't need shipping half way across the planet. 

 

Even if its produced 500 miles away, it's better than 5000.

Oh dear, you still falling for that then.

 

In economics there is a term 'competitive advantage'.  The UK is anything but competitive in manufacturing, mainly why we ship our designs out and let others manufacture them.  The UK has one of the worse productivity levels of any industrialised nation.

Making food and consumer 'stuff' in the UK is wasteful, why we have changed to a service economy, we are good at that, though we are slipping down the rankings fast.

Shipping of good is such a tiny part of the cost and the emissions that it is often not able to be measured at the component level.

If you drive to a local farm shop you are almost certainly doing more environmental damage than going to the local supermarket, even if that local supermarket is further away.

Getting goods delivered to your door is the best option, though that does raise question about how we treat our 'gig' economy workers.

 

Here is an example for you about how hopeless we are.

The Bacon company Tulip has a processing plant in Cornwall, it is about 60 miles from Devon, 100 from Exeter.

Cornwall is not a pig rearing area, the weather is wrong for it.  So they ship carcases in, process them, then ship them out, all by trucks (if you ever see an orange CBT lorry, chances are it is full of bacon).

So we rear hundreds of miles from the processing plant, then ship them back, hundreds of miles, to the population centres i.e. Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, London, Brighton, Hull (closer to Holland than Cornwall) etc.

The thing is, this is still more economical, on all levels of sustainability, than a local farmer raising a pig, taking it off to market, then bringing it back as processed meat and selling it to a local.

 

We live in a globalised economy, we have since the East India Trading Company was battling on the high seas, the reason we trade is because it is more efficient, and these days, less damaging.

 

There is a saying that you cannot have 'quick, cheap and good', well you can, you just get the people who have invested in the resources to do the work.  They tend to work in integrated manufacturing systems, not alone.

[FuerteStu]

41 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Oh dear, you still falling for that then.

 

We live in a globalised economy, we have since the East India Trading Company was battling on the high seas, the reason we trade is because it is more efficient, and these days, less damaging. 

 

You do realise people would listen to and respect your opinion more if you weren't such a condescending prick.. 

 

I live on the Norfolk Suffolk border. My local butchers gets its meat from within 20 miles, and the processing abattoir even less. 

4 miles away I can get bacon, sausage and pork that is reared and slaughtered and butchered on site. 

 

My greengrocers stocks seasonal veg produced that can be seen growing in the fields in the months before it's in the shops. 

 

Please, stop assuming you're talking to an idiot. 

 

Yes the vast majority of people do what you're saying, but that's why I'm advocating education about consumption as being the driving force for change. 

 

Economics is the study of existing systems, and traditionally pretty crap at predicting those systems, let alone future ones. If people started consuming ethically, the 'economics' Would reflect that. 

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, Crofter said:

Ah I missed the 200 mile requirement. You'll have to wait a few more years to get that at £5k.

As I understand it, modern EVs are seeing very little battery degradation, although much depends on how they're been treated. Don't they give an indication of the battery health? That's something I've seen on adverts, but maybe it's to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

Some will give you battery helth as opposed to charge. But in many cases, you will need to be able to "find it" through a menu on a car you are not familiar with. Some you will need an OBD scanner. The general car buying public are not going to rock up at the dealership with an OBD scanner, much less have a clue how to use it.

 

As i said, its a barrier, been identified as such, but no action is proposed.

 

2 hours ago, Crofter said:

If I come across as a techno-optimist it's probably because for the past three years I've been living off grid on a boat, powered by PV and lithium. The whole project was about £2k to put together. It's infuriating to see other people not even bothering to explore what this technology can do, and they continue to run generators. Even if you don't give a crap about the environment, or noise, the cost of fuel and servicing alone quickly makes PV+storage the cheapest option.

 

Returning to the original question of using a car as a battery: the prices I see quoted for domestic batteries are very high. I built mine for about £120/kWh. Is anybody using DIY batteries on domestic projects? Are there any hurdles to doing this?

 

On a boat, i guess its a bit simler, but none of it is simple to the layman. Im at leasdt technically minded, but i find the whole thing perplexing. Sure, if you are in a position to just pay someone for a turnkey installation, thats great, but i cant pay that kind of money.

 

To me, with the 4,5kw array i have on a pallet, ignoring payback, id like to install it, make it much bigger, heat up water for heating, and if i had an EV. maybe charge that too, and discharge back to house. Sounds simple enough when said like that. Try understanding how that would all work, never mind put it together. If i had to pay to have it done, its a complete non starter. But, i would contest your statement, its the cheapest option. It just isnt. 

 

Maybe you should start a thread on your battery set up. Sounds too good to be true.

 

[saveasteading]

Ding ding. Break. We can disagree without being rude.

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, Dillsue said:

The average car journey is under 5 miles so easily done with a tired battery.

 

5 miles is easily cycled if you can't afford an old EV, or you want to do the right thing for the environment, your health and pocket

 

Only a complete moron with no sense of self preservation would ride a bike here. 5 miles just gets me to the nearest civilisation. And thats britains smallest town.

 

Riding a bike outside a few of the bigger cities is a near sucidal activity. Before i had a car, i used to ride a bike. More than enough close shaves. At least back then the roads were not riddled with potholes and drivers looking anywhere but out of the wondow.

 

When i was living in buckingham, i used to see a guy commute along the A422 on a regualar basis In the dark and rain. So many times people nearly hit him in the dark. He is dead now. Run over by a truck. 

 

Cycling is fine as a leisure activity. It has no place as real transport outside of big towns.

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

thats britains smallest town.

Is that the one where the Christmas lights are still up because the man that does it is injured?

[FuerteStu]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

Is that the one where the Christmas lights are still up because the man that does it is injured?

I think it's the one with the local pub, for local people.. 

[JamesPa]

17 hours ago, Roger440 said:

All that said, i still say we should be spending these vast sums (that we dont even have) on protecting ourselves from climate change, not a futile attempt to prevent it.

@Roger440 We have heard quite a lot about what you are against, and lets be honest, attacking suggestions made by others without making a counter-suggestion is the easy part of any discussion.  However the above comment suggests that you also have views on the harder part of the discussion, ie that you are also for something.  Can you enlighten us what it is that we should be doing, in your view, that we are not doing?

Edited February 24 by JamesPa

[Crofter]

Can we tone down the language on here a bit please, totally unnecessary and it's at risk of getting personal.

[Crofter]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

Maybe you should start a thread on your battery set up. Sounds too good to be true.

 

I don't think it's hugely relevant to a house building forum since it's all 12v off grid stuff. But a bit of info about it:

 

 1kw of PV charging 6.6kwh of 12v LiFePO4 batteries via MPPT charge controllers. 3kva inverter to supply the AC loads.

 

This powers all of my domestic systems including fridge, freezer, induction hob, air fryer, electric mini oven, lights, etc etc.

 

I have a gas cooker which is my backup, but I very rarely need that- maybe one day a month on average.

 

The battery cost about £800, the inverter was about £700. MPPTs about £200. Panels and other bits were dirt cheap- eBay, second hand, etc.

 

The secret is that I'm not in the UK- PV works very well in sunny countries, despite what the newspapers tell you 😂

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, Crofter said:

it's at risk of getting personal.

I think that boat has sailed 

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Crofter said:

3kva inverter

What make is that?

Would do most of my daytime loads.

[joe90]

38 minutes ago, Crofter said:

The secret is that I'm not in the UK

But your “label” says Isle of Skye ?

[Dillsue]

2 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Riding a bike outside a few of the bigger cities is a near sucidal activity.

We're 3 miles outside of a city of 70k people and I ride in and out several times a week without any drama as do the couple of other people I know that regularly cycle.

 

I think people who like the cheap convenience of jumping in the car for even the shortest journey are the ones that think they'll die as soon as they sit on a bike which unfortunately is the vast majority of car drivers.