JamesPa Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 Just now, Roger440 said: So, sensibly, yes, i should replce the blown units. Low cost, and gets me back to how they should be. But thats going to have almost no appreciable effect on the overall cost. You might be surprised how much difference it makes, at least to comfort. I certainly was. 2 hours ago, Roger440 said: As ProDave observes, nobody has come up with a solution for older houses. I doubt anyone will either. Not really true. Many older houses (mine included) can be effectively insulated. Not to the absolute best standards sure, but enough to make them much more comfortable. Its a job for when you are otherwise refurbishing or at least decorating. We have heard a lot about what you are against. Whats more interesting in many ways is what are you in favour of? What do you believe we should be doing about climate change, both individually and collectively? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 Just now, SteamyTea said: I have a light touch on the keyboard, or a heavy touch if I am thinking about other things. Can you add a layer of insulation around the inner frame. It does make me wonder if the energy saving benefits of new windows is oversold, would have to do some real research as much of it depends on the wall to window area. Both my neighbours had plastic windows fitted to save painting them, I just bought a £600 scaffold tower and can sort them in a couple of sunny days. If they replace existing double glazing then I suspect yes, judging by how much difference simply replacing the glass made to my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, JamesPa said: Many older houses (mine included) can be effectively insulated. Yes, I think they can as well. Many people get hung up on loosing floor area with IWI. But realistically the area lost is not where it matters. Sitting an extra 125mm closer to a TV just means you can get a smaller TV. 1 minute ago, JamesPa said: If they replace existing double glazing then I suspect yes Yes they were already double glazed, just goes to show that an extra few mm of airgap does not make a huge difference. I have a porch that is unheated, I am sure that with the front door being there, a bit of clingfilm would worth just as well as my now triple glazed window. Adding the secondary glazing cured the small draughts from the old seals when it is vert windy, but the biggest comfort change was the reduced noise. That has been massively improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 These arguments generally just prove that energy is too cheap. At least it is too cheap for people to naturally reduce usage in the way that gets us to zero carbon. Clearly many people struggle to pay for it. Running the numbers indeed suggests that on a purely financial basis extra insulation rarely pays for itself. Cheap glass wool that you can put in the loft and stopping air leaks probably has the best return. Cars are a funny one. Depreciation is such a large expense that other running costs are almost irrelevant for many people. I have an electric car mainly because they are much nicer to drive and I like never having to go to the petrol station. It won’t be long before they cost the same as ice cars and the market will quickly move over. A quite high percentage of luxury cars are already EVs as there is less of a price premium (think Taycan vs Panamera) so people seem happy to make the switch once prices are similar. To the original post about using your EV as a battery. This has a cost to the owner in battery degradation and perhaps inconvenience hence they are offering you free electricity in exchange. I’d happily do that if it made financial sense. At the moment I’d save £200 in car charging a year and have to buy a £4000 box for the privilege. Actually as I couldn’t use IO I’d have increased electricity bills so a non starter. But for some people this could make sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 9 minutes ago, AliG said: These arguments generally just prove that energy is too cheap How long have I been saying that. Is some asked you to push a tonne, 1 meter, every second, for an hour, don't think many would do it for 35p. That is just how cheap it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 54 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: I have a light touch on the keyboard, or a heavy touch if I am thinking about other things. Can you add a layer of insulation around the inner frame. It does make me wonder if the energy saving benefits of new windows is oversold, would have to do some real research as much of it depends on the wall to window area. Both my neighbours had plastic windows fitted to save painting them, I just bought a £600 scaffold tower and can sort them in a couple of sunny days. Can i add some insulation round the frame. Yes. I could. Not sure how you envisage that would look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, Roger440 said: Can i add some insulation round the frame. Yes. I could. Not sure how you envisage that would look? Basically a window cill made from sheet insulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, JamesPa said: You might be surprised how much difference it makes, at least to comfort. I certainly was. Not really true. Many older houses (mine included) can be effectively insulated. Not to the absolute best standards sure, but enough to make them much more comfortable. Its a job for when you are otherwise refurbishing or at least decorating. We have heard a lot about what you are against. Whats more interesting in many ways is what are you in favour of? What do you believe we should be doing about climate change, both individually and collectively? What i meant, and i think Dave did too, is there is no sensibly priced solutions. Ive spent hours researching how to insulate the place. Ive pretty much got a plan on what to do. I know how to do and think ive mitigated the risks associated with doing so. It just doesnt come close to making sense. financially. Bear in mind that if i did as suggested, i would have to do it without BC approval, as if i informed them, the cost and complexity would spiral out of control. If i paid someone else to do the work, and do it with BC sign off, we would be into 6 figures. So, if you want an answer to your question, consider something other than an all or nothing approach. If all the EPC g houses moved to an E, that would be a significant saving. But the "system" doesnt allow it unless you go "rogue" and simply do it anyway. As ive said before, i believe we should be preparing for the effects of climate change. You wont stop it, certainly not by the piddling measures we as a nation are taking. Do not confuse that with denial. Edited February 23 by Roger440 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Basically a window cill made from sheet insulation. Can certainly be done. Not much frame visible though. 30mm all round. Amazing how much bulkier windows have become over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 24 minutes ago, AliG said: These arguments generally just prove that energy is too cheap. At least it is too cheap for people to naturally reduce usage in the way that gets us to zero carbon. Clearly many people struggle to pay for it. Running the numbers indeed suggests that on a purely financial basis extra insulation rarely pays for itself. Cheap glass wool that you can put in the loft and stopping air leaks probably has the best return. Cars are a funny one. Depreciation is such a large expense that other running costs are almost irrelevant for many people. I have an electric car mainly because they are much nicer to drive and I like never having to go to the petrol station. It won’t be long before they cost the same as ice cars and the market will quickly move over. A quite high percentage of luxury cars are already EVs as there is less of a price premium (think Taycan vs Panamera) so people seem happy to make the switch once prices are similar. To the original post about using your EV as a battery. This has a cost to the owner in battery degradation and perhaps inconvenience hence they are offering you free electricity in exchange. I’d happily do that if it made financial sense. At the moment I’d save £200 in car charging a year and have to buy a £4000 box for the privilege. Actually as I couldn’t use IO I’d have increased electricity bills so a non starter. But for some people this could make sense Cars are really quite simple. Remove the barriers and people will buy them. Currently, for many, there are significant barriers. Primary being cost. One wonders why the barriers are not being removed. Instead we do bonkers things like allow company directors tax advantages for buying huge overpowered, overwight, high performance cars. Whilst the average man on the street gets nothing. At all. Leaving EV's well out of reach. Ive looked at replacing the wifes ageing corsa with something newer. Budget circa £5k. Needs to do a 200 mile trip for the once/twice a week commute. There is nothing, not even close. If i spend 4 times that, then maybe. Preaching and lecturing about moving to EV's will achieve nothing as long as the massive cost disparity exsists. Theres a reason autotrader is awash with lused uxury / high performance EV's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, Roger440 said: There is nothing, not even close. If i spend 4 times that, then maybe. I looked up the price of a second hand first generation Toyota Mirai. Was £0. I think Toyota bought them back when the hydrogen fuel points closed. Should be able to take the fuel cell out and fit a few batteries. Would make for a very heavy car as it was already heavier than a Model 3. Battery cars are heavy, but not as heavy as hydrogen ones, or much different than my Mondeo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 We’re still at the early adopter stage for EVs. Also the legacy car makers are struggling to adapt to a changing market. The car market is awash with luxury cars whether they are EVs or ICE and most new EVs have been at the luxury end of the market so far. The other challenge is younger people are becoming less interested in driving generally for a variety of reasons not least of all cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 And just to add a twist to this, my daughter is a L driver (test in 8 weeks, unless it gets cancelled again) She needed to learn in a manual car, which of course means ICE. Now it is certain in her lifetime there won't be any ICE cars left (apart from perhaps still some classics) but even so, she did not want to lean in and then be restricted to automatic cars. so we bought a small ICE car for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 13 minutes ago, Kelvin said: We’re still at the early adopter stage for EVs 40 years ago, turbo chargers where a very rare thing on a car. 45 years ago, fuel injection was rare (why is British beer so warm, Lucas also makes fridges). In fact, 40 years ago, about the only diesel car you went in was a taxi. It takes a long time for people to change. 1 hour ago, AliG said: Depreciation is such a large expense that other running costs are almost irrelevant for many people. The car I have just bought was £20,500 15 years ago. That is £1200 a year depreciation. About 30p/mile for the previous owner. My trip up to see my Mother a couple of days ago cost me £70 in fuel, that is 10p/mile. The only way to change behaviours is to up the price of energy to make it better reflect the true environmental costs. This would financially hurt me very badly, but it is the right thing to do (I was doing the same journey when fuel was £2/litre, rather than this rather cheap £1.51/litre. At the moment my vehicle depreciation is 83p/mile if I assume the vehicle has no value. Give it another 6 weeks and that number will be down to 40p/mile. Makes one think don't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 11 minutes ago, ProDave said: needed to learn in a manual car, which of course means ICE When I lived in the USA, I popped into the local test centre to enquire about taking a test. Explained that I was driving as a visitor on my UK license. The examiner said 'well you can obviously drive, I can test you now'. He asked me a few questions and ticked them off on a form, got me to drive him around town in my Auto Pontiac Grand Am (the V6 one, basically a Vauxhall Calibra) and took my picture. Charged me $120 and issued me a Pennsylvania license that lasted 4 years. When I asked about driving a manual car, he looked perplexed. Eventually he realised I meant a stick shift, told me I could drive them as well, no difference. Could drive a small artic as well, but can't remember the tonnage. Pennsylvania is such a civilised state. He liked it that I had lived in Penn in England as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markc Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Put energy prices up (which I agree with) public outcry for price caps and hand outs. increased costs for businesses, transport, food, clothes etc. - more public outcry and handouts. cut the population - massive reduction in CO2, energy use, waste and no housing crisis …. But who’s going to do what is really necessary? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, Roger440 said: Cars are really quite simple. Remove the barriers and people will buy them. Currently, for many, there are significant barriers. Primary being cost. One wonders why the barriers are not being removed. Instead we do bonkers things like allow company directors tax advantages for buying huge overpowered, overwight, high performance cars. Whilst the average man on the street gets nothing. At all. Leaving EV's well out of reach. Agree. Time will eventually fix this, batteries will become cheaper and the fact that EVs are fundamentally simpler (much simpler) will eventually win out and once range anxiety is fixed (which will likely happen first) the choice will be a no brainer for most. The Chinese are driving down costs of production big-time. The history of new technology is that it starts expensive and gets cheap. Take Digital Cameras as the obvious recent example. As to your comment about the politics, what can I say? The politicians in charge talk the (climate change) talk but don't walk the walk. Just on Tuesday the (very controversial) Offshore Petroleum Licencing Bill got its third reading in the Commons (as it happens I was in the public gallery when the division took place). The bill places the North Sea Licencing Authority under a duty to run annual licencing rounds for new fossil fuel exploration (currently they do not have to do so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JamesPa said: The bill places the North Sea Licencing Authority under a duty to run annual licencing rounds for new fossil fuel exploration (currently they do not have to do so). Yes, I heard that, but did not take take much notice as I was driving in exceptionally wet weather, not that week's of rainfall has (expletive deleted) all to do with climate change, it is just weather isn't it. Edited February 23 by SteamyTea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: 40 years ago, turbo chargers where a very rare thing on a car. 45 years ago, fuel injection was rare (why is British beer so warm, Lucas also makes fridges). In fact, 40 years ago, about the only diesel car you went in was a taxi. It takes a long time for people to change. The car I have just bought was £20,500 15 years ago. That is £1200 a year depreciation. About 30p/mile for the previous owner. My trip up to see my Mother a couple of days ago cost me £70 in fuel, that is 10p/mile. The only way to change behaviours is to up the price of energy to make it better reflect the true environmental costs. This would financially hurt me very badly, but it is the right thing to do (I was doing the same journey when fuel was £2/litre, rather than this rather cheap £1.51/litre. At the moment my vehicle depreciation is 83p/mile if I assume the vehicle has no value. Give it another 6 weeks and that number will be down to 40p/mile. Makes one think don't it. Deliberately putting people into financial hardship or poverty is never the right thing to do. And for what? Something that will ultimately make no tangible difference to anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 6 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Something that will ultimately make no tangible difference to anything Not sure what that is referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 55 minutes ago, JamesPa said: As to your comment about the politics, what can I say? The politicians in charge talk the (climate change) talk but don't walk the walk. Just on Tuesday the (very controversial) Offshore Petroleum Licencing Bill got its third reading in the Commons (as it happens I was in the public gallery when the division took place). The bill places the North Sea Licencing Authority under a duty to run annual licencing rounds for new fossil fuel exploration (currently they do not have to do so). If we were using that oil ourselves, and not importing it, it wouldnt be so bad, but we wont see any of it. All sold on the open market Contrary to the total lies about it from the PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Not sure what that is referring to. ie, none of our actions will make any difference to what happens to the climate. Whats coming is coming. All you would do is impoverish people, and achieve little else other than line the pockets of the energy companies and/or government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Roger440 said: ie, none of our actions will make any difference to what happens to the climate. Whats coming is coming. On basis do you make that statement? Its not what the climate scientists say. Without a doubt some climate change is inevitable (in fact some has already happened and some more is baked in). That does not mean that we cant still affect the future severity by taking concerted action now. Edited February 23 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 6 minutes ago, Roger440 said: ie, none of our actions will make any difference to what happens to the climate. Whats coming is coming. There are small chapels in the mid west of the USA that will welcome you with open arms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JamesPa said: On basis do you make that statement? Its not what the climate scientists say. Without a doubt some climate change is inevitable (in fact some has already happened and some more is baked in). That does not mean that we cant still affect the future severity by taking concerted action now. I appreciate my view wont be popular, especially here. Im very confident i will be proven right over the long term. The idea that some ASHP's and EV's will make the slightest difference, and that you believe it too, i struggle with tbh. Deep down, surely you know its all futille? A large chunk of the world just isntinterested. Even our own PM says one thing and does another. Nothing happens. Life rolls on. Edited February 23 by Roger440 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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