Energy Efficient Water Heater

[jack benson]

Hello,

 

I am trying to find a route to market in the UK for a water heater that we have patented / are producing.

 

I do not want to get booted for spamming.

 

Its an energy efficient heater for showers.

 

I am hoping to get directed to the type of resellers / forums / trade etc events that are interested in new products & ideas.

 

We tried the Installer Shower, but it was not the right target audience.

 

thanks

[ProDave]

In what way is your heater more efficient than others, how does it heat the water?

[jack benson]

we recovery up to 10 kW of energy from the waste water so we can heat water from 7 C to 40 C at 6 litres per minute using between 2.5-3.6 kW of heat (variable output electric heating element to maintain the flow at the correct temperature)

 

without the heat recovery you need a 14 kW heating element to provide the same amount of energy to heat water from 7C to 40 C at 6 litres per minute. 

 

 

the waste heat is recovered from the used shower water and used in real time - so the energy loss in minimal (used shower water is never put back into the shower)

 

the system is specifically designed for showers.

 

This video is from Triton. Their 7.5 kW shower will give 3 litres per minute in winter, and their 10.5 kW shower will give 4.5 litres per minute in winter.

 

using no more than 3.6 kW we can give 6 litres a minute year round at 40 C

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Right, as pointed out above, how is your heater more efficient.

Shower waste water heat recovery has been around decades, you even get your SAP/EPC adjusted if fitted.

 

What makes your WWHR better?

7 minutes ago, jack benson said:

using no more than 3.6 kW we can give 6 litres a minute

Going to be a hard sell, 6lt/minute may be okay for a man, I suspect not many women will like a dribbling shower with that flow rate.

 

If you really want to make an innovative product, think up a way to recover the energy when a bath is drained.

More energy to recover from 100lt of 30⁰C bath water than 60lt of 26⁰C shower drain water.

 

Have you got some actual usage data?

 

We may sound a bit negative on here, but we like like a robust debate based on real data, not Hopium.

 

[jack benson]

yes - WWHR has been around for a while, but there is no system on the market that both heats water and recovers heat at the same time.

 

WWHR are normally paired with a hot water cylinder and a lot of heat is lost in the pipes. Either the WWHR is not located near the source of heat, or there is a long pipe run back to the cylinder, or there is a long pipe run from the cylinder to the shower.

 

Our system has been independently tested by the French body for WWHR and we have an 88% efficiency. I am happy to share the data 

 

Instant electric showers need a 40 or 60 amp supply, and struggle with flow rates in winter. They are generally designed to have a max cold water inlet temperature of about 25 C, so putting a WWHR device between the shower tray waste outlet and the electric shower is often not possible.

 

Our system only requires a 20 amp supply, and we have a 13 amp version that will have a slightly lower flow rate in winter.

 

I am not saying this system is for everyone, but there are use cases where it provides a better solution than the alternatives.

 

in the UK over 30% of the market is instant electric showers. 6 litres per minute is wishful thinking for half the year.

 

like heat pumps we can reduce reduce energy usage by up to 75%, but we do not need a large water tank or to install anything outside.

 

This is a demonstration of the system working.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1 by jack benson

[Originaltwist]

I sort of like this and if it had a built in booster to increase flow it would solve my particular shower issue then I'd like it even more.

However; To connect all the pipework I'd have to rebuild my shower area.  And as shower drain pipes can get sludged up with mould and slime how do you clean it? Would it go under the shower tray or on the wall?

It looks like your market is for new shower installations and that crowd have a lot on their minds already so they will be risk averse. Selling something new, however good, is difficult and expensive. But good luck.

[Mike]

Having looked it up, the innovation seems to be that the waste water is pumped from the tray to the shower, passing through a heat exchanger (with the incoming water) before discharging to the SVP.

 

6l / minute can give a decent enough shower (if not a luxurious one) and, according to that video, it seems that it can maintain that flow rate with a low incoming water temperature, which is a plus.

 

I can see that there is potential for this among the eco-conscious, and also where the electrical supply is limited - as it often is in France, which doesn't normally have the UK's generous 80A/100A supplies.

 

3 hours ago, jack benson said:

I am hoping to get directed to the type of resellers / forums / trade etc events that are interested in new products & ideas.

Futurebuild and / or  Grand Designs Live?

[jack benson]

4 minutes ago, Originaltwist said:

I sort of like this and if it had a built in booster to increase flow it would solve my particular shower issue then I'd like it even more.

However; To connect all the pipework I'd have to rebuild my shower area.  And as shower drain pipes can get sludged up with mould and slime how do you clean it? Would it go under the shower tray or on the wall?

It looks like your market is for new shower installations and that crowd have a lot on their minds already so they will be risk averse. Selling something new, however good, is difficult and expensive. But good luck.

 

yes - either for new builds, bathroom renovations, or adding a bathroom to an existing property.

 

The renovation market is many times larger than the new build market

Edited February 1 by jack benson

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, jack benson said:

The renovation market is many times larger than the new build market

I think that the renovation / domestic extension market also doesn't require WRAS approved products, unlike new build.

[jack benson]

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

6l / minute can give a decent enough shower (if not a luxurious one) and, according to that video, it seems that it can maintain that flow rate with a low incoming water temperature, which is a plus.

 

If we made a 4.5 kW version we could increase the flow rate to a minimum of 8 litres per minute.

 

remember the quoted flow rates are the lowest flow rates when the cold water is at its coldest. In the summer the flow can increase.

 

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

Futurebuild and / or  Grand Designs Live?

 

I want a few reference sites in the UK before investing in trade shows. I think that is going to be important for acceptance.

 

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

I can see that there is potential for this among the eco-conscious, and also where the electrical supply is limited - as it often is in France, which doesn't normally have the UK's generous 80A/100A supplies.

 

there are many positives

 

- significant energy savings

- Tankless design so not standing heat loss

- Limitless amount of hot water

- does not require an environmental heat source like ASHP or solar thermal panels

- small footprint

- can easily retrofit

- energy cost comparative to gas heated showers

- frees up space as large hot water cylinder not required

- coupled with solar PV + battery, zero energy cost showers (Solar PV provides a more useful energy source than solar thermal)

 

Edited February 1 by jack benson

[ProDave]

One issue I see is there might be a "warm up time"?

 

If the heater is only a few kW then first time you turn it on, the shower temperature will be low as the waste temperature is low.  Once warm waste water starts to reach the unit the flow temperature will warm up, but would there be an issue with a tiled shower where the waste water would initially be cooled by the cold tiles and may be a slow warm up time?

 

Happy to hear how it works in practice.

 

It sounds a good idea but only of interest to new builds or a serious bathroom refit.  The biggest market would just be to replace existing electric showers, but the piping for the waste means that is not possible.

 

How do you deal with access for servicing the unit?  It seems like it needs to be under a floor with an access hatch to reach it.  That might work with a carpeted landing next to a bathroom where you could fold back the carpet to get to a hatch?

[Iceverge]

Good on you for having a punt. It's not easy and watching water pour away at 40⁰ is a tremendous waste of energy.

 

I can see it being a solution for multi unit apartment with limits on the gas and electricity supply and no desire to install UVCs that require G3 sign offs.

 

Ensuring the heat exchanger doesn't get clogged will be vital. With waxy soap compounds solidifying when cooled this could be a troublesome issue. 

 

For an individual bathroom in a house it'll be a hard sell. You can buy a well known electric shower for £70 and install it with basically a single pipe and cable.  

 

 

[jack benson]

we have a pre-heat cycle. there is a button that is pressed before the user wants to shower. it takes between 1.5 - 3 mins to pre-heat the water in the system (deepening on the room + cold water temperature) - this is enough to heat the shower cubical / floor etc without experiencing a temp drop in the water. 

 

once the shower starts, there is a constant supply of hot water - no waiting you have to when the hot water tank is on the other side of the house.

 

we have a Wifi / Bluetooth app in the works which will enable you to start the pre-heat.

 

in future we plan to add the ability to set times of the day the system will automatically pre-heat itself.

 

 

at the moment the system is wall mounted.

 

the next production batch will be 500 * 300 * 150 mm in size - not tiny but not massive. it should be as close to the shower as possible to maximise performance.

 

 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, jack benson said:

waste heat is recovered from the used shower water and used

I saw this idea at a trade show in France about 15 years ago. It was a copper fabrication where the incoming cold was warmed by the waste.

It was early days so I don't know if it succeeded. But it's likely to have been patented if it was deemed a new idea.

 

My issues were location, access, extra plumbing and payback period. With a 2 minute shower I doubt if it has merit. With a 30 minute one perhaps.

[jack benson]

20 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Ensuring the heat exchanger doesn't get clogged will be vital. With waxy soap compounds solidifying when cooled this could be a troublesome issue. 

as part of the patent protection we have an automated cleaning cycle that keeps the heat exchanger clean. 

 

20 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

For an individual bathroom in a house it'll be a hard sell. You can buy a well known electric shower for £70 and install it with basically a single pipe and cable.  

yes - but the experience is bad in winter and expensive to run all year.

 

if you want to spend £100 on a shower, we are not for you, but if you are in a house that has issues with hot water, and putting in a bigger cylinder or changing the gas boiler will cost many £1000's, this is a good alternative

 

the building work is limited to the bathroom

 

finally, bring a 40/60 amp supply to the bathroom is expensive. a 20 amp supply should me much cheaper

Edited February 1 by jack benson

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, jack benson said:

we have a Wifi / Bluetooth app in the works which will enable you to start the pre-heat.

Stop that right now, just asking to have an unattended shower.  I flooded my house by popping downstairs, getting distracted and forgetting I had it running.

[jack benson]

2 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

My issues were location, access, extra plumbing and payback period. With a 2 minute shower I doubt if it has merit. With a 30 minute one perhaps.

 

it depends what problem you are trying to solve.

 

If you focus on cost saving and take a short shower, then yes - on that metric it might not be for you.

 

But if you want to have a nice hot shower year round and for whatever reason you cannot at the moment, and you do not want to do major plumbing works on the house, i cannot see any other solution on the market that will give you this shower experience without requiring larger scale works

[jack benson]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Stop that right now, just asking to have an unattended shower.  I flooded my house by popping downstairs, getting distracted and forgetting I had it running.

it wont start the shower, it will start the pre-heating of the water in our system. 

[torre]

Congratulations if you're recovering anywhere close to 88%, that sounds above alternatives with much larger heat exchangers (but until your products are listed in the Products database used by SAP it's hard to know if it's a like for like comparison - are you saying you outperform PowerPipe for example). I still think 'easy retrofit' sounds a stretch though, and the pre-heat will be a barrier for some potential customers.

 

Isn't your obvious route to market a licence or tie in with a major shower manufacturer? Have you approached them?
 

46 minutes ago, jack benson said:

The renovation market is many times larger than the new build market

I agree renovation is your main market but regardless of energy efficiency in markets like the UK I think you'll struggle to persuade customers to replace their shower with one that has a lower flow rate, and also risk unhappy customers when their new shower is weaker than the old, so I'd focus here on pitching at least the same flow rate, but for much lower cost.

 

Good luck with your product, it would be great to see more energy efficient products reaching the mainstream.

[jack benson]

11 minutes ago, torre said:

Congratulations if you're recovering anywhere close to 88%, that sounds above alternatives with much larger heat exchangers (but until your products are listed in the Products database used by SAP it's hard to know if it's a like for like comparison - are you saying you outperform PowerPipe for example). I still think 'easy retrofit' sounds a stretch though, and the pre-heat will be a barrier for some potential customers.

 

Isn't your obvious route to market a licence or tie in with a major shower manufacturer? Have you approached them?
 

I agree renovation is your main market but regardless of energy efficiency in markets like the UK I think you'll struggle to persuade customers to replace their shower with one that has a lower flow rate, and also risk unhappy customers when their new shower is weaker than the old, so I'd focus here on pitching at least the same flow rate, but for much lower cost.

 

Good luck with your product, it would be great to see more energy efficient products reaching the mainstream.

 

the next production batch will have an even more efficient heat exchanger which should beat the 88% we achieved in the previous test Measuring the performance of a water heat recovery system - News - CSTB

 

in terms of the pre-heating time - everything in life has friction. if you are used to it then you live with it, if you are not used to it, then the trade-offs needs to be explained. i think having an endless supply of hot water for a family is better than running out of hot water if there is a hot water tank, or if you are trying to get rid of a combi gas boiler and you need to put a large hot water tank for a heat pump, then our solution for showers might be a good option so you don't have to find space for the large water tank.

 

 

if you are renovating the bathroom then our product should not be complicated to install.

 

if you are not renovating the bathroom then you cannot install it.

 

 

We are speaking to lots of people. Kohler / Mira recently bought Recoup for example. At the moment our focus is to bring some international sales. 

 

if for the UK, faster flow is more important, we can look at a roadmap with a 8 or 10 litre a minute model.

 

and thank-you for your best wishes

 

[Sparrowhawk]

I like the sound of this though I'm not the target market. Have you looked at having a presence at https://www.nsbrc.co.uk/? You get good exposure at their shows and it gives you visibility and I'd say credibility-by-association in the UK market.

[BotusBuild]

Beat me to it. +1 for NSBRC

[jack benson]

3 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

I like the sound of this though I'm not the target market. Have you looked at having a presence at https://www.nsbrc.co.uk/? You get good exposure at their shows and it gives you visibility and I'd say credibility-by-association in the UK market.

 

This is the type of show I will target in the future.

 

We got a free stand last year at the Installer Show 2023 as we fitted their criteria for innovation - there was supposed to be a dedicated area for innovation - but they sold the space at the last minute and pushed us all to different parts of the hall and it was hard to be visible. Also people were not looking for innovation at that show.

 

I want to try to get a few installs before committing to an exhibition as it is important to have local reference sites.

[SteamyTea]

Take this at face value.

 

The energy required to heat that much water is:

 

4.18 [kJ.kg^-1.K^-1] x 60 [litres or kg] x (40 - 7.6) [∆T] = 8125.92 kJ, or 2.26 kWh.  Your claim is that it uses 0.65 kWh, 2.26 times less, a 71.2% reduction.

 

Now this is where I am getting a bit confused.

 

 

Taking just the water going down the soil stack, 6.8 lt/min and comparing that to the water in from the main cold feed, 5.9 lt/min plus shower cold feed 0 lt/min and the shower hot feed 6 lt/min.

 

6.8 [soil stack lt/min] = 5.9 [main cold feed lt/min] + 6 [shower hot feed lt/min] + 0 [shower cold feed lt/min]

 

6.8 = 11.9

 

What am I missing?

 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

The technology isn't often seen in the UK, so it would be good to make it available here. Weirdly enough I visited a property with something that looked like it today. Are you importing existing European tech? No harm in that btw.

 

The self-build and PH magazines and shows would be obvious targets.

 

Here's the list of drain heat recovery tech in PHPP right now. BTW getting your product in the PHPP spreadsheet would be helpful too - there's isn't much UK stuff in there.