Help! I need to Replace my GSHP

[Nially]

18 hours ago, Iceverge said:

Here's some running costs. ( Electricity prices from switcher.ie, standing charge and other elec usage excluded, 65% usage on night rate tariff, rural user)

 

€2299/yr direct electric on a 80% usage night rate tariff. Capital cost €400 for Willis heater/immersion. 

€935/year on cheaper monoblock ASHP( COP for SH/DHW of 3/2). Capital cost of €7000

€ 728/year on an expensive split ASHP(COP for SH/DHW of 4/2.5) . Capital cost for AHSP+ cylinder inc install is €12,000. 

€728/year for GSHP with same COP's. Cost of borehole and pipes €6000. 

€1169/yr on Oil. Capital cost say €4000 for new boiler/tank and external store

 

Here's a quick table of total costs based on my above guesses. 

 

 

As you can see direct electricity wins for years 1-3.

 

Then oil for year 4. 

 

Then a GSHP repair for years 5- onwards although the cheap ASHP is a not far off.  The expensive ASHP never catches up. 

 

 

Although it's rough and ready you can probably discount oil, and an expensive ASHP and direct electric. 

 

 

 

You're back to 2 options. A cheap ASHP and fixing the GSHP. I would get some accurate quotes,revert and I can redo the sums. 

 

 

 

PS. What was the spec you were quoted for the ASHP for €12k?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your input and taking the time to put that together. It certainly make all the options a lot clearer. 
 

I was quoted for a 12kw Daikin mono block unit but I have asked for a requote for a smaller pump. They used standardised parameters to size the heat pump as the house was built in 2014 and I have no accurate heat loss data. Although a near 10 year old house it’s was built and insulated a lot better than the parameters they have used. I should have the new quote back on Monday. 
I also got a quote of 13,500 for 2 bore holes each 130 meters deep🙈. The payback certainly isn’t there to justify that. I am also meeting another driller during the week to get another quote so I’ll see how that goes.

thanks again

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Nially said:

 Repair isn’t a solution/option here so it’ll be a replace ground loop or drill bore holed if I continue with the GSHP

Simple then. Replace with ashp.

They really aren't noisy although you wouldn't one on the patio.

Positioning out of your way and perhaps with a louvred fence, and of course choosing a quiet model should suffice.

[billt]

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

They really aren't noisy although you wouldn't one on the patio.

 

I'm starting to get annoyed when I see this said. They are noisy, some more than others, although you wouldn't think so from all the youtube videos and articles from enthusiasts saying that they're almost silent.

 

I fitted one a few months ago and it produces really annoying noises. The worst is from the compressor, but the noise varies dramatically as conditions change. Varying noise is more irritating than steady noise. (And it's more irritating than the noise that the old gas boiler made.)

 

Strangely, I've just fitted an air to air heat pump and that is much less objectionable. Of course it's less powerful, but the noise is more consistent, more like white/pink noise and lower in level, but it's still noise.

 

There's also an ASHP for the swimming pool. That also so makes noise, less objectionable than the heating ASHP, but it's still somewhat noisy.

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, billt said:

I fitted one a few months ago and it produces really annoying noises. The worst is from the compressor, but the noise varies dramatically as conditions change.

Sound like it is either a faulty unit of has not be fitted correctly.

[PhilT]

20 minutes ago, billt said:

I'm starting to get annoyed when I see this said. They are noisy, some more than others, although you wouldn't think so from all the youtube videos and articles from enthusiasts saying that they're almost silent.

 

I fitted one a few months ago and it produces really annoying noises. The worst is from the compressor, but the noise varies dramatically as conditions change. Varying noise is more irritating than steady noise. (And it's more irritating than the noise that the old gas boiler made.)

 

Strangely, I've just fitted an air to air heat pump and that is much less objectionable. Of course it's less powerful, but the noise is more consistent, more like white/pink noise and lower in level, but it's still noise.

 

There's also an ASHP for the swimming pool. That also so makes noise, less objectionable than the heating ASHP, but it's still somewhat noisy.

I get annoyed when I read this nonsense. They are not noisy, unless old, poorly maintained, badly fitted, or any combination of the above. 

[saveasteading]

20 minutes ago, billt said:

starting to get annoyed when I see this said.

Sorry. All I can say is the ones I've seen recently are quiet. A few Daikins, and a vaillant.

[saveasteading]

Not that any of us would sit next to a gas or oil burner vent either.

[George]

They make a noise, but I wouldn't call them noisy.

[Iceverge]

On 17/12/2023 at 11:02, Nially said:

I was quoted for a 12kw Daikin mono block unit but I have asked for a requote for a smaller pump. They used standardised parameters to size the heat pump as the house was built in 2014 and I have no accurate heat loss data. Although a near 10 year old house it’s was built and insulated a lot better than the parameters they have used. I should have the new quote back on Monday. 

I also got a quote of 13,500 for 2 bore holes each 130 meters deep🙈. The payback certainly isn’t there to justify that. I am also meeting another driller during the week to get another quote so I’ll see how that goes.

thanks again

 

 

What was itemised in the quote, was it inc vat? Unfortunately it might not be completely outrageous as you'll probably need a replacement cylinder too. (I assume the current cylinder is integrated to the GSHP?)

 

That's lightly to be an ASHP for €6000+€2500 for a cylinder. There'll be a bit of messing with electrics, manifolds and pumps and controllers. That's probably nearing €10k in parts.

 

As said before the payback case for an expensive heating system in a low energy demand house is almost always questionable. 

 

We paid €3000 for a 180ft well in 2020 so about €55/m. Yours is only €52/m so that isn't too expensive either I'd say. 

 

Other left field options come to mind. 

 

1. Contact Mastertherm and see will any of their ASHP units swap nicely into the indoor unit of the GSHP. 

 

2. Do you have a steam or pond  nearby that you could extract some heat from to continue running the GSHP. 

 

3. Buy a cheaper ASHP from Donedeal or of a "no-name" brand and jerry-rig it into your current cylinder. If it's cheap enough I wouldn't worry about a small ASHP as it'll cope with DHW all year-round and give the space heating a significant enough haircut to justify topping the rest up with night rate direct electric. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

18 hours ago, billt said:

fitted one a few months ago and it produces really annoying noises. The worst is from the compressor, but the noise varies dramatically as conditions change. Varying noise is more irritating than steady noise. (And it's more irritating than the noise that the old gas boiler made.)

Which brand?

[ReedRichards]

On 17/12/2023 at 11:02, Nially said:

the house was built in 2014 and I have no accurate heat loss data.

 

Surely you have some idea based on how much your GSHP was costing to run?  Real data will always trump an evaluation.

[andyj007]

Nially, it must be super  frustrating  that your loop has failed, in such short time .  i woudl be livid ,,   whilst I cannot add anythng for a news system,  i am interetsted in teh loop install, im wondering if you have any pictures of open trenches ?  IMO laying of pipes in trenches can be tricky to keep perfect loop and back filled all perfectly radiused ..   im sure that if your pipes have failed then others must have or be about to ..   is it not possible it could be a manufacture defect in the pipe make up.?  we had a whole house fail in copper once with the copper pipe having defect pin holes..  the manufactures insurance  picked up the entire refit..    what did teh manufacture recommend for the loop radius and what was installed ?   there certainly doesnt seem to be many incidneces on teh internet of failed loops, and considering how little attention groundworkers pay to the the small details , if the loops were so super critical surely we would have more issues ?  but if its installed not as manufactures details then surely the installer insurnce woudl pick up the costs..  or would you house insurance cover this even?  I would be pretty worried if i had  aground loop after reading your failure  as i iamagine others would,

..  FYI in our last house we had an ASHP that ws 6m away from house on garage wall  , with buried flow and return pipes that were highly inulated.. so they dont have to go right on the house wall..

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by andyj007

[ProDave]

On 19/12/2023 at 08:07, ReedRichards said:

 

Surely you have some idea based on how much your GSHP was costing to run?  Real data will always trump an evaluation.

Even more simple what was the rated power output of the GSHP?  that has been working well so an ASHP with the same power output would be a good starting point.

[Roger440]

On 17/12/2023 at 19:59, billt said:

I'm starting to get annoyed when I see this said. They are noisy, some more than others, although you wouldn't think so from all the youtube videos and articles from enthusiasts saying that they're almost silent.

 

I fitted one a few months ago and it produces really annoying noises. The worst is from the compressor, but the noise varies dramatically as conditions change. Varying noise is more irritating than steady noise. (And it's more irritating than the noise that the old gas boiler made.)

 

Strangely, I've just fitted an air to air heat pump and that is much less objectionable. Of course it's less powerful, but the noise is more consistent, more like white/pink noise and lower in level, but it's still noise.

 

There's also an ASHP for the swimming pool. That also so makes noise, less objectionable than the heating ASHP, but it's still somewhat noisy.

 

Id suggest context is everything. In a town environment, probably not noticeable. In a very quiet rural environment, it will be noticable.

 

At the last place i had a sewage treatment plant with a compressor. Which was buried, in a chamber with soundproofing.

 

Used to drive me potty. Wife didnt understand what the issue was.

 

 

[billt]

On 17/12/2023 at 20:21, PhilT said:

I get annoyed when I read this nonsense. They are not noisy, unless old, poorly maintained, badly fitted, or any combination of the above. 

 

It isn't nonsense. Even the manufacturers say that their heat pumps make noise.

 

Samsung give a figure of 48-63dbA at some unspecified distance.

 

Vaillant say Sound pressure level of 55dB sound pressure level of 47dBA at 1M, 33dBA at 5M for the 7kW model. Vaillant are among the quietest heat pumps and they aren't quiet.

 

3 bungalows were recently built near us and were fitted with Vaillant heat pumps. Go out on a cold evening and you can hear them roaring away from 30M away.

[JohnMo]

19 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Id suggest context is everything. In a town environment, probably not noticeable. In a very quiet rural environment, it will be noticable.

 

At the last place i had a sewage treatment plant with a compressor. Which was buried, in a chamber with soundproofing.

 

Used to drive me potty. Wife didnt understand what the issue was.

 

 

In county there is more land per property than city, so less neighbours to annoy.

 

But they just aren't noisy unless running flat out - I have to be close to mine to realise it's running.

 

2 minutes ago, billt said:

3 bungalows were recently built near us and were fitted with Vaillant heat pumps. Go out on a cold evening and you can hear them roaring away from 30M away.

They must be big units running flat out. Or installed so the noise is bouncing off things.

[billt]

25 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Id suggest context is everything. In a town environment, probably not noticeable. In a very quiet rural environment, it will be noticable.

 

That's certainly an element, but some people seem to be almost totally unaware of their environment and tolerate ludicrous amounts of noise.

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

34 dBa is about the level of a person's whisper

 

But whispering can be annoying.

How loud is an oil or gas burner flue btw?

 

I have a mental trick.  Listen to heavy traffic noise in the distance. Think waterfalls. One is annoying because people are doing it to you, the other is calming because it is nature.

 

I haven't tried it with heat pumps yet.

 

 

 

 

 

[billt]

5 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

In county there is more land per property than city, so less neighbours to annoy.

 

But they just aren't noisy unless running flat out - I have to be close to mine to realise it's running.

 

They must be big units running flat out. Or installed so the noise is bouncing off things.

 

We're on the edge of a town on a big plot and the neighbours aren't affected by the noise as there is distance and fences between them and the noise source. It annoys me though, having been mislead into thinking that ASHPs aren't that noisy.

 

I was under the impression that system design for heat pumps meant that they should be run reasonably hard to gain maximum efficiency. Ours was designed that way and does run at maximum output for a significant amount of time. Of course the will all run at close to maximum output when recharging a cylinder so that's 30-40 minutes of peak noise a day.

 

I think that the bungalow units are probably 5 or 7kW ones, but, yes, on a cold evening they probably were running flat out and making lots of noise.

 

So heat pumps aren't noisy if they're not doing anything!

[PhilT]

On 16/12/2023 at 15:21, Nially said:

Yes thanks I am also thinking of a mono block unit  and to mount it 9ft up on the outside wall as I can run pipes across the ceiling to my heating cupboard. I will need new dhw cylinder as you rightly suggested.

If a 7kw unit will do the job it will look a lot neater on the wall outside

I think this is an excellent idea and one I was also considering but couldn't find a suitable location. It has an advantage of enabling better efficiency at low ambient temps.  "A thermometer on most weather stations is taken 2 meters (or about 6 feet) above ground level (AGL). Because cold air sinks relative to warm air, and because the ground radiates heat very efficiently during calm, clear nights, the temperature at or near ground level can often be several degrees cooler than the temperature at the 2 meter thermometer height".

https://www.weather.gov/abr/frost_fall2012#:~:text=Because cold air sinks relative,the 2-meter thermometer height.

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, billt said:

having been mislead into thinking that ASHPs aren't that noisy

I used to think ASHPs would be noisy when our neighbours had one fitted 1.5m from our fence. It was a Nibe and I couldn't hear it when standing next to the fence, except it produced a whooshing sound once in a while, that lasted about a minute. They certainly used it and we lived there for over three years and we were right out in the sticks. We must have been lucky with the various factors influencing the sound.

[SteamyTea]

4 hours ago, billt said:

I was under the impression that system design for heat pumps meant that they should be run reasonably hard to gain maximum efficiency. Ours was designed that way and does run at maximum output for a significant amount of time

There you go. You have a badly designed/sized system.

 

You can't tar all ASHPs with the same brush.

[Roger440]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

34 dBa is about the level of a person's whisper

 

I have a mental trick.  Listen to heavy traffic noise in the distance. Think waterfalls. One is annoying because people are doing it to you, the other is calming because it is nature.

 

I haven't tried it with heat pumps yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are correct that running water, even if loud doesnt irritate. Ive not really tried to understand why that is, but no amount of thinking traffic noise or a heat pump is calming will work. Because its not!

 

ASHP's make noise. Thats unavoidable because of what they are. They are demonstrably not "quiet". They make some noise. However, some people are not bothered by it, some are.

 

If i have to have one, it will be a long way from the house with shielding. It wont affect anyone else though, as there isnt anyone else.

[Beelbeebub]

55 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

You are correct that running water, even if loud doesnt irritate. Ive not really tried to understand why that is, but no amount of thinking traffic noise or a heat pump is calming will work. Because its not!

 

ASHP's make noise. Thats unavoidable because of what they are. They are demonstrably not "quiet". They make some noise. However, some people are not bothered by it, some are.

 

If i have to have one, it will be a long way from the house with shielding. It wont affect anyone else though, as there isnt anyone else.

Probably white noise Vs noises of single frequencies.

 

Rain, falling water, waves etc tend to be white/random noise.

 

Machinery can have a distinct series of peaks which can be annoying. 

 

Ironically fan noise can be quite white, quite a few people use desk fans to fall asleep to, but it is also easy to generate  distict peaks that van be annoying by having things like support struts or louvres that interact with the rotating blades.

 

Compressors can also make a distinct buzz.

 

But the main thing is individual sensitivity.  People can live under a flightpath or by a railway and still be bothered by the heatpump next door.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

You are correct that running water, even if loud doesnt irritate

Does it (expletive deleted).

I camped out by a babbling brook once. Noise kept me awake all night.

I now look for places with familiar sounds to camp near.

It is the absence of normal you have to be wary off.