Can't fix, won't fix...what's the alternative

[Kelvin]

Slight thread drift. Are fire regulations for open plan kitchens, stairs and bedrooms different in Scotland compared to England? 

[Thorfun]

38 minutes ago, ETC said:

The rational for the doors is straight forward - they are there so that the bedrooms upstairs are not accessed through the kitchen. If the doors were not there the whole hallway, the staircase and the kitchen would be considered as a single space.

 

Alternatively look at sliding doors or a Automist system. BC may allow you to install an Automist system in lieu of separating the kitchen from the staircase.

 

I presume you have EEWs in all bedrooms on the first floor? and that this is only a two storey dwelling? Anything else and the requirements for means of escape get more onerous.

 

Automist Smartscan fire sprinkler: water mist fire suppression

I think it's a bit late for a sprinkler system! we have emergency egress windows in all bedrooms and it's it only a two storey dwelling (as I believe the basement doesn't count).

[Thorfun]

14 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am about to fit a (smaller but still quite heavy) bifold door to my pantry.  Quite a lot of people that reviewed the door I have bought have ditched the top and bottom pin arrangement as being lousy and not well built, in favour of just hanging the end door on normal hinges mounted into the door frame as any other door hinge.

 

Is that an option for you to consider?

could definitely be something to talk to the carpenter about! thanks.

[Thorfun]

18 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am about to fit a (smaller but still quite heavy) bifold door to my pantry.  Quite a lot of people that reviewed the door I have bought have ditched the top and bottom pin arrangement as being lousy and not well built, in favour of just hanging the end door on normal hinges mounted into the door frame as any other door hinge.

 

Is that an option for you to consider?

along those lines these doors (https://www.climadoor.co.uk/downloads/Climadoor-Interior-Frenchfold-Door-System-method-of-build-2018-v5-AW.pdf) have wall mounted pivots for their system. I wonder if we could use something like that? (I can't use the Climadoor system as our opening isn't tall enough and there are many poor reviews online for Climadoor so I made an executive decision to stay away from them)

[saveasteading]

49 minutes ago, ETC said:

The rational for the doors is straight forward - they are there so that the bedrooms upstairs are not accessed through the kitchen.

That's what a wall or a self closing  door would do. But these doors are specifically designed to be left open.

[torre]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

something about protected exits or some such

This certainly sounds like fire protection - do you have any bedrooms with window openings too small to escape from? They're nice doors but would be an expensive mistake if something fire rated is required.

 

If you don't need fire protection, I know Jeldwen also do some glazed room dividers (though we actually ended up doing pocket doors, in a smaller opening)

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, torre said:

This certainly sounds like fire protection - do you have any bedrooms with window openings too small to escape from? They're nice doors but would be an expensive mistake if something fire rated is required.

 

If you don't need fire protection, I know Jeldwen also do some glazed room dividers (though we actually ended up doing pocket doors, in a smaller opening)

I'm 99% sure we don't need fire doors. I have asked again my BCO (along with a stroppy email about not getting a response from them and what am I paying my money for) so hopefully I'll get a definitive answer before 2025.

 

I've looked and looked and looked for alternative but our opening is only 2021mm in height so we are very limited with what we can do and what will fit. most bifolds seem to require an opening of at least 2050mm high and those you linked are 2047mm so won't fit. the JCI ones are pretty much all I'm left with as an option!

 

there are some that require a 2031mm opening and the doors can be trimmed by 20mm but that's making things a little tight and they also don't come in a solution wide enough so we'd have to spend more money reducing the width of the gap.

[saveasteading]

Looking forward to bco explanation, in case there is something I'm not understanding.

"Why?" is the differentiator between good bcos and the others.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> can you not cut the pin short (depth of the tile) and the screw to act as location pins along with suitable glue

 

Yeah, I like this solution.

 

Not sure I buy the resin iceburg idea. Also screed is normally fairly crumbly so you would get a better hold from the tile - they're usually so strong that they're a proper pain to cut. Also, general purpose PU or epoxy resin isn't very strong either.

 

Presumably you have a similar problem with the top mount too?

 

[Thorfun]

Just now, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> can you not cut the pin short (depth of the tile) and the screw to act as location pins along with suitable glue

 

Yeah, I like this solution.

 

Not sure I buy the resin iceburg idea. Also screed is normally fairly crumbly so you would get a better hold from the tile - they're usually so strong that they're a proper pain to cut. Also, general purpose PU or epoxy resin isn't very strong either.

 

Presumably you have a similar problem with the top mount too?

 

the top mounted pivots will go straight up into the head plate of the opening so no issues at all with that!

[ETC]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

That's what a wall or a self closing  door would do. But these doors are specifically designed to be left open.

Doors in a two storey dwelling do not need self closers except a door between a garage and the dwelling. The doors from the kitchen to the hall can stay open 24/7 365 days of the year - they only have to exist.

[ETC]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I think it's a bit late for a sprinkler system! we have emergency egress windows in all bedrooms and it's it only a two storey dwelling (as I believe the basement doesn't count).

Then you need doors.

[Thorfun]

42 minutes ago, ETC said:

Then you need doors.

Yep. And we’ve not got a problem with that! Just need to fix them without puncturing our UFH pipes! 😂

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> you would get a better hold from the tile

 

Just to clarify - I was imagining that this is porcelain tile rather than, say, terracotta tile - that can be fairly crumbly.

[Thorfun]

16 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> you would get a better hold from the tile

 

Just to clarify - I was imagining that this is porcelain tile rather than, say, terracotta tile - that can be fairly crumbly.

yep. porcelain tiles. I wonder if a hole drilled through the tile with a suitable length screw to just go in to the screed by 5mm and then using an angle grinder to grind troughs in to the tile face and then an adhesive/resin. then there's not just a small slither of adhesive between the plate and the tile as the troughs will give the adhesive more depth and also the screw through the tile and to the screed will act as an anchor between the pivot, tile and screed?

 

just need to figure out the strongest adhesive/resin to use. I thought a 2-part resin was the bees knees as it's used to hold threaded bars in place etc?

[torre]

20 hours ago, crispy_wafer said:

cut a piece of ply to the same shape as the metal footplate and glue with some super dooper polywhatsit adhesive to the screed.  Cut tile so that it fits perfectly around the bit of ply

This sort of approach, embedding something to fix into, may work better than the cut troughs and help you rely less on the strength of any adhesive.

You mentioned the tiles are already down - what about using a circular tile cutter to get a neat cut out and then gluing in, say, a same sized circular steel plate to fix into?

[Alan Ambrose]

I like @torre's idea also, maybe with a bolted fixing - but then you are probably going to need some custom metal bits made. Great if you can get those done easily.

 

I just re-read the manufacturer's suggested fixing method using screws only. I somehow assumed they would use an accurate pin to stop sideways movement.

 

I think a metal dowel pin, say 10mm, and a corresponding very accurate hole in the tile (and the bottom plate) would do it. The hole in the tile will need a diamond drill so it'll be nice and accurate. Screws and plugs are always a bit wobbly - fine for small loads. The key force you're trying to counteract, of course, is the sideways shear caused by the weight of the door acting 1/2 a door's width from the pivot point. This kind of thing:

[Thorfun]

25 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I like @torre's idea also, maybe with a bolted fixing - but then you are probably going to need some custom metal bits made. Great if you can get those done easily.

 

I just re-read the manufacturer's suggested fixing method using screws only. I somehow assumed they would use an accurate pin to stop sideways movement.

 

I think a metal dowel pin, say 10mm, and a corresponding very accurate hole in the tile (and the bottom plate) would do it. The hole in the tile will need a diamond drill so it'll be nice and accurate. Screws and plugs are always a bit wobbly - fine for small loads. The key force you're trying to counteract, of course, is the sideways shear caused by the weight of the door acting 1/2 a door's width from the pivot point. This kind of thing:

afaik there is no 'pin', it's just screws. which is why I'm sure that screwing through the tile will be enough and the adhesive/resin is just belt and braces.

 

1 hour ago, torre said:

This sort of approach, embedding something to fix into, may work better than the cut troughs and help you rely less on the strength of any adhesive.

You mentioned the tiles are already down - what about using a circular tile cutter to get a neat cut out and then gluing in, say, a same sized circular steel plate to fix into?

yeah, this could work if I can use an angle grinder to cut a suitably sized hole without damaging the tile that's visible. could be problematic due to the circular nature of the angle grinder disc and the proximity to the jamb. but I think that's something I wouldn't know until I got the door on-site and measured the pivot etc.

 

on a plus side my stroppy email to BCO seems to have worked as he's visiting site tomorrow to see where we're at and I can bombard him with questions!

[joe90]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

my stroppy email to BCO seems to have worked as he's visiting site tomorrow to see where we're at and I can bombard him with questions!

Great, when you cut into the tile, cross cross with the angle grinder to break it up and use (very carefully ) a centre punch to remove very small amounts of tile at a time. Never used one but a dremel or similar may help.

[crispy_wafer]

4 hours ago, Thorfun said:

yeah, this could work if I can use an angle grinder to cut a suitably sized hole without damaging the tile that's visible. could be problematic due to the circular nature of the angle grinder disc

maybe chain drill it instead.  Multitool any edges.  Be careful though.   Reckon it would take me about a month to pluck up the courage!

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, crispy_wafer said:

maybe chain drill it instead.  Multitool any edges.  Be careful though.   Reckon it would take me about a month to pluck up the courage!

yeah. I might leave it to my chippie to do! 😆

[ProDave]

Just to follow on from my earlier comment about my own bifold doors.  I fitted them this morning using the supplied pivot pins rather than ordinary hinges.

 

In my case the bottom bracket is an L shaped bracket that fixes to the door jamb and then has a single screw at it's outer end for stability.  As i was fixing into oak flooring, I just used a short screw that I knew would not reach through the floor board so no chance of hitting the UFH (which should in any event be missing from this bit of floor)

[Thorfun]

18 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Just to follow on from my earlier comment about my own bifold doors.  I fitted them this morning using the supplied pivot pins rather than ordinary hinges.

 

In my case the bottom bracket is an L shaped bracket that fixes to the door jamb and then has a single screw at it's outer end for stability.  As i was fixing into oak flooring, I just used a short screw that I knew would not reach through the floor board so no chance of hitting the UFH (which should in any event be missing from this bit of floor)

please let me know the lateral stability of the doors when operational with just that single screw

[joe90]

9 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

please let me know the lateral stability of the doors when operational with just that single screw

No, @ProDave says,,

29 minutes ago, ProDave said:

In my case the bottom bracket is an L shaped bracket that fixes to the door jamb and then has a single screw at it's outer end for stability. 

So has at least two screws .

[ProDave]

Yes it is an L shaped bracket that came with mine.  The upstand of the L is recessed into the door janb and fixed with 3 screws into that.  That leaces it pretty stable.  There is then just a single screw at the end of the bottom part of the L that screws into the floor for good measure.  I will take a photo later.

 

Perhaps your solution might be to make a similar bracket that locates your pin but is fixed to the jamb like mine?