Nickfromwales Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 16 minutes ago, Barney12 said: Ive done a few properties over the years (actually I've never bought a habitable house!), mainly refirbs but also a barn conversion and an almost complete rebuild (we left a couple of walls standing!). All have been 'traditional' in construction which I personally have found much simpler to control as the speed is slower. I dont think i'll build another passive slab and timber frame. The experience has been far from enjoyable. I'm going to be elated when these issues are finally resolved. I can then get on with what I enjoy most with is the internal elements of a build, I guess it's where I'm most comfortable. Actually im not sure I'll ever do a project of this scale and complexity again. Oh and definitely not on a National Park. Oh and I'm looking for bats in anything I ever buy again. So much as a dropping and I'm walking away Glad to hear your not bitter ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Following this thread with interest - I've never put a level on our slab and have since sold my laser - I can tell it's slightly out in some places (When I did stud walling I could sometimes have 5mm difference but never more), but nothing that's ever given me cause for concern thus far - wait til I start tiling! However, interested because the garage slab has a distinct wave in it around the middle - the concrete pour was not ideal and as a result it's along the lines of what some people here have - mainly in the middle but never going to cause me an issue because it's jsut a garage. The garage was poured with standard C35, vibrated and bull floated (and of course they added bloody water). The house slab was laid Agilia - which comes out like very runny porridge - it got one float and that was it. It's a bit rough on the surface but overall, the levels are pretty okay. So my point/wonder is this - how were all these uneven slab poured? Using standard concrete or a more modern mix like Agilia (which is not actually self levelling, but self compacting) which may go a long way to getting a more even slab? The guys who did our mix had the lasers all setup as per a normal pour but I wonder if the better level is down to the mix, or just the crew? @Vijaythinking of you here looking ahead to your slab and the large floor area? I suspect that Agilia is still treated as 'new fangled' but I'd be interested to know if the likes of MBC use it or give a blank look when it's mentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Glad to hear your not bitter ?? Sorry, was a bit dark. I've got full blown man flu and thus I'm even more grumpy than normal!! My wife is doing a stirling job in reminding me that sympathy is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Barney12 said: Yes, ours was power floated. ours was supposed to be power floated too and I assume it was but I have no idea who the lads were who did it, there were just 3 youngish chaps who did the white polystyrene stuff. I was not there when they did the concrete so cant say who was there. We had some nice Irish chaps putting the frame up but no idea of their names I was only there for short visits. One tiler who came to quote for the floor tiling said it would add about a thousand to our bill as he would have a lot to do to try and get the floor level....maybe he was trying it on! Our 3 soil pipes are in the wrong place and we are having to dig out the slab to move them back a foot to where they need to be for the wall hung w.c's At least there is no UFH in that area and I am not trying to apportion blame it is our fault we got the positions wrong. It seems that there was only a 20mm service void allowed for in the ceiling no one picked up that our downlights need 70mm so we are now having to pay for extra battening once insulation and membrane are done and that height difference affects the floor to ceiling kitchen units I have ordered and so on and on it goes......at least the mould is clearing up now the roof is watertight and we can get the place dried out. The complications and costs in sorting everything do make you wonder if it is worth it. I would think twice about doing this whole tf thing again too, last house build was 30 years ago traditional brick and block I understood that a lot better and it seems to be more flexible and forgiving, possibly a whole lot cheaper too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC45 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 We are building tf with brick exterior, Ive been surprised how much stuff can be out - Ive used a lot of spacers battening out, but have accepted that the floors upstairs arent as level as I wanted. Like a few others here, if I do this again I suspect it will be a block & brick job but with a wide & filled cavity. Every trade seems to know problems exist but seem to expect the next trade to sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 We were about 3mm out on 4.5m width and about 5mm over 15m on the length. Thats conventional brick and block and working from an old building that was far from level ...!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 The strength and the weakness of the MBC-style passive slab and Larson strut system build from custom factory-made cassettes is its precision. For traditionally built houses this often an aspiration that most construction gangs don't even bother with. The build technique can tolerate sloppy workmanship. I was showing someone our bathroom and the double steel bath fits exactly in the width of the room. Even my tiler was amazed at this "lucky" coincidence -- until I explained that the reason that the steel bath fitted so well was that I'd designed the width of the bathroom so that it would. We got to Rev J before I finally signed our build plans off. This construction technique gives far better build tolerances -- on average -- but this is because it is also for more susceptible to the ripple consequences of off-spec work. The reason that we got our foul water runs in the right position, etc, is because I was on site during the slab work and ditto during the frame erection. Trust but verify. IMO, independent engineering design / quality assurance is absolutely essential during these intense weeks. The crews are working flat out 12-hr days and they just don't have the time to halt work to check on issues. Someone needs to be working along side sorting issues before they occur and with the will and authority to call a halt whilst something really need resolving. It doesn't matter whether this is the self builder, project manager or architect, but someone needs to be onsite doing this design and QA role, IMO. If the self-builder has a day-job, then I would suggest that an engaged PM or equivalent is needed to fill this gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 11 hours ago, lizzie said: We are going for the ditra matting as well as whatever adhesive/levellers needed as ditra may help in getting it flat. Totally pointless and will genuinely will do nothing for getting the floor flat. Ditra is for decoupling, and if you don think you'll need it then do away with the extra adhesive needed to bed it down, labour and matting costs. Fyi Ditra is just a fluffy plastic sheet with castellations pressed into it, so will simply follow any undulations rather than bridge them or level them out. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 9 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Totally pointless and will genuinely will do nothing for getting the floor flat. Ditra is for decoupling, and if you don think you'll need it then do away with the extra adhesive needed to bed it down, labour and matting costs. Fyi Ditra is just a fluffy plastic sheet with castellations pressed into it, so will simply follow any undulations rather than bridge them or level them out. ? Ok thanks I will discuss with tiler. I am so fed up with differing views from tilers on this floor and all the other problems! I thought we had carefully plotted the soil pipe locations with the slab people, it only became apparent when the studs went up that the drawings had been misread and they had taken some boxing for cistern on the drawing (now not needed it will go in the stud) as being the wall line, once you know it is very clear where the error occured. I saw it immediately and no one could miss it the soil pipes are in the middle of the room in the w..c you wouldnt get in the door with the pan there! Even if my project manager had been on site at that point it would have been too late as the slab was already poured. Sometimes I wish I had just bought a house ready built and saved all this. I am so fed up with it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 24 minutes ago, lizzie said: I am so fed up with it all. There'll be days when you'll feel like this, for sure. There will also be days of pure joy when things you've been planning and dreaming about for months suddenly appear in real life and are even better than you'd imagined. I'm not sure whether I could do a house build again, but I'm pleased I did it, despite all the heartburn. It's hard at times, but it will turn out in the end, and everything is fixable (albeit not always cheaply!) Come on here, ask for help, and have a whine. Many of us have been there and will do our best to help or at least sympathise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 A ready built house would have a lot of cut corners, hidden from sight, and you'd have most of these issues to resolve AFTER you've bought it, and you'd likely have paid more for a worse final product. Chin up, and put a smile back on your face. Many people would cut their right arm off to be able to build their own home . Leveling your floor is easy to do as it's being tiled, up to say 6-7mm undulating, and any more than that just needs spot levelling as they go. Have the tilers stated that you need to decouple ? Is the slab screed or concrete ? Re-bar / fibres ? Sorry if you already stated this elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 @lizzie - we all have these moments, plenty of them. But there are solutions, it just sets things back and possibly results in a bit of a compromise. But you will get there in the end. I can guarantee you that one day soon you'll look back and feel a sense of pride and achievement that you simply will never get from buying a new house. Not only that, you truly have achieved something most others wish they could do but can't for various reasons. You are right about differing views however, but over time you start to apply your own logic and that helps you decide. That's not to say everyone is right or everyone is wrong, but in my experience, always add your own dose of common sense in and you'll generally get there. No-one will ever know the effort you put into it - but you will. And no-one will notice all these 'mistakes', compromises or workarounds. I can point at two windows next to each other that are a different shade of grey and say 'look at that' and no-one has a clue what is actually wrong! When I explain they say they thought that was supposed to be like that! Chin up - persevere and you'll get there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesP Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 14 hours ago, Barney12 said: Oh and definitely not on a National Park. Oh and I'm looking for bats in anything I ever buy again. So much as a dropping and I'm walking away @Barney12 I hear you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 31 minutes ago, jamiehamy said: And no-one will notice all these 'mistakes', compromises or workarounds. I can point at two windows next to each other that are a different shade of grey and say 'look at that' and no-one has a clue what is actually wrong! When I explain they say they thought that was supposed to be like that! Exactly. In one of the three windows in our kitchen, the plasterer double-boarded the head reveal, but only single boarded the others (long story, but basically there's double-boarding in a lot of the side-reveals, and I think he doubled up by habit when he did the head on that window). It drives me a bit nuts, but no-one I've pointed it out to has noticed it, even when I've asked them to tell me what's wrong with the plastering around the windows. The kitchen alone has maybe 6 or 7 details that I'm not happy with, but no-one else seems to notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, jack said: Exactly. In one of the three windows in our kitchen, the plasterer double-boarded the head reveal, but only single boarded the others (long story, but basically there's double-boarding in a lot of the side-reveals, and I think he doubled up by habit when he did the head on that window). It drives me a bit nuts, but no-one I've pointed it out to has noticed it, even when I've asked them to tell me what's wrong with the plastering around the windows. The kitchen alone has maybe 6 or 7 details that I'm not happy with, but no-one else seems to notice. Just a second voice on this issue. I can look at the roof we've tiled and point out every slate that I'm not quite happy with, the dormer I clad I can spot the two bits of timber that don't quite match. Everyone else looks at them and says "wow, that looks great" !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted September 6, 2017 Author Share Posted September 6, 2017 OK, dragging this thread back to the beginning. @Nickfromwales OK, so popped up to site yesterday when I had a brief moment and set up the laser (just sat it on the floor). The results appear "less good" Note that the measurements below are to the threshold edge where the top of the tiles would sit. However, the results below only answer Nicks question about "are the two doors level". The gap below the threshold to the slab is actually around 20mm. This presumably demonstrates the slab not being level. As already show above the gap from threshold to slab on the slider differs considerably left to right. My head hurts I've also attached a couple of photo's of the laser line. The hinge position on each door photographed is identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 @Barney12 Quite simple. You need an inventive tiler to come and give you some solutions. Its extremely difficult to advise definitively over the forum, and would be so much easier if I was on site. The window / door fitters should have fitted these using a single datum point TBH, but with the issues they encountered you can see why they've neglected to observe such an important detail, instead going for individual 'nice fits' at each opening. . You can blame them for progressing ( without identifying that these would differ, and having not informed you as such, and therefore not giving you the opportunity to stop and rectify before the fitting ) but you also can't blame them as this wasn't really their problem to overcome, not to the extent that they've had to at least. Looking at the plan in the last post, it seems the only real issues are the areas marked as +6 to +8mm as you won't have enough depth to get a tile under the door threshold ? Is that the case ? If so MBC can simply grind those areas down accordingly. If the other areas are just over the required / ideal deficit, then they're easily resolved with some proper self leveling? You mark +6, +8 etc which you mean distance from threshold to screed yes? Also, opposite the opening marked +26, is the floor flat in that room to the wall opposite the opening? Need to know that that doesn't raise up again. Im about to tile a bathroom floor. It runs out 15mm to nothing, from the window to the door opposite, and that's only over 2400mm. I'm going to take ~ half of that out with adhesive, prob up to 10mm then the remaining 5mm won't matter as it simply won't be seen. Please confirm the above and we can box this off. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Oh, also, if the door hinges are differing in height aka the thresholds differ, are the measurements you show already taking this into consideration? eg +6 etc is 6mm from the FFL that you wanted to end up with. Eg if you sat a 10mm tile there on 4mm of adhesive you would be 8mm above the target FFL? Eg +26 with the same would be 12mm BELOW the target FFL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted September 6, 2017 Author Share Posted September 6, 2017 Hi Nick, sorry I am succeeding in confusing! All I was doing in the above was answering your question: "Are the kitchen diner thresholds level with the one marked?" Thus my datum point is at "0" and the measurements show the threshold level. If everything had been done correctly then all of these measurements should be 18mm (I.e. 18mm from threshold to slab). However they are not. BUT I do have more than 6mm and 8mm on that West door. this thus corresponds with the slab sloping. When I get to site later I'm going to take some slab measurements and will add them to the drawing. Hopefully it will then become clearer P.S. I know a really good pro-tiler but he's too bloody busy to do my floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Ok sorry. I thought you'd updated on screed top to current threshold. My mistake. So what your saying is the doors are nearly 20mm higher / lower than each other. Just future fyi, always choose the highest single point as your datum and call THAT zero. If the laser line won't go that low, find the highest point and call that 'ref point zero'. Mark the wall 1000mm up from there and that's your datum +1000. Start at the left and right hand margin of each opening. With the laser line on at the 1000mm mark simply stand up and lower the end of the tape measure down until it hits the screed and take the reading where the laser hits the tape ( say 1026 aka "datum + 26" ) and then at the same point measure the threshold and record that too. Go around all 4 corners of small rooms or 6 or 8 points around larger rooms to create a map. That way you know the highest point ( i.e. the point you cannot exceed ) and you should then have 2 measurements for each side of each opening, threshold and screed. PM me when your on site and I'll give you a ring whilst your there if easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 47 minutes ago, Barney12 said: P.S. I know a really good pro-tiler but he's too bloody busy to do my floor Ask him just to level it for you ? / pick his brains and pay him for his expert opinion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted September 6, 2017 Author Share Posted September 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Ask him just to level it for you ? / pick his brains and pay him for his expert opinion ? Its you you donut 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted September 6, 2017 Author Share Posted September 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Ok sorry. I thought you'd updated on screed top to current threshold. My mistake. So what your saying is the doors are nearly 20mm higher / lower than each other. Just future fyi, always choose the highest single point as your datum and call THAT zero. If the laser line won't go that low, find the highest point and call that 'ref point zero'. Mark the wall 1000mm up from there and that's your datum +1000. Start at the left and right hand margin of each opening. With the laser line on at the 1000mm mark simply stand up and lower the end of the tape measure down until it hits the screed and take the reading where the laser hits the tape ( say 1026 aka "datum + 26" ) and then at the same point measure the threshold and record that too. Go around all 4 corners of small rooms or 6 or 8 points around larger rooms to create a map. That way you know the highest point ( i.e. the point you cannot exceed ) and you should then have 2 measurements for each side of each opening, threshold and screed. PM me when your on site and I'll give you a ring whilst your there if easier Ta. Understood. I won't get there tonight as work is getting in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Barney12 said: Ta. Understood. I won't get there tonight as work is getting in the way. Work is what's paying for it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted September 6, 2017 Author Share Posted September 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Work is what's paying for it . Tell me about it. It's an oxymoron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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