Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

“What is a buffer tank for?”

https://www.kingspan.com/gb/en/knowledge-articles/do-i-need-buffer-tank/#:~:text=A buffer tank is simply,energy from the heat pump.

 

A buffer tank is simply an insulated vessel that adds additional volume of hot water to your heating system, i.e. the water that goes around the radiators and is treated with chemicals to stop rust. It acts a little like a battery for the heating system, allowing it to store more of the energy from the heat pump.

 

 

Do I need an expansion tank and a buffer tank?

 

 

 

 

An expansion tank allows for the expansion and contraction of a system when it heats up and cools off and provides head pressure for the circulation pump. A buffer tank adds volume to a heating or cooling system and helps prevent 

 

the internet can answer nearly all your questions zoot!

 

 

Hi Joe90.

 

That's useful, but raises concerns for me straight off the bat that if placed 1.5m away from my spare bedroom bed.. there could be some irritating water noise from it. NOTHING likely to compare to the mechanical pump that's plagued me overnight, but, could still possibly be intrusive to the function of this bedroom (sleep). Vaillant would't admit this. They'd just fkn lie saying 'it doesn't make noise'. They didn't even tell me anything about a large box, with paltry sound insulation pathetically tagged onto it's sides (a design atrocity) they decided to site in this very spot. So they wouldn't be truthful about any noise this buffer may emit. Never in a month of sundays would they.

 

Anyway. The main point I'd put in reply to your post here is this, which Ive asked time after time but no response;

 

WHY DOESNT MY ASHP NOW, HAVE THIS BUFFER..... WHY IF THIS MONOBLOCK PROPOSITION IS A 'REPLACEMENT' (NOT AN 'ALTERNATIVE' SYSTEM),  DOES IT HAVE ONE ???

 

(I guess this is a rhetorical question, rather than one any of you guys could answer, is my point right here).

 

Thanks, zoot

 

 

[joe90]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

They'd just fkn lie saying 'it doesn't make noise'.

Well mine never made any noise. and I am not fkn liying.

 

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

WHY DOESNT MY ASHP NOW, HAVE THIS BUFFER...

Because it’s a different system that works in a different way 

 

if you refer to my post above simply ask them if they will instal without a buffer because you have no room, if the answer is yes, no problem. If the answer is no then you SIMPLY have to decide if you want to find room for it or not have the ASHP at all 🤷‍♂️.   Simples!!!

Edited August 29, 2023 by joe90

[sharpener]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

what can yiu think of to help me navigate the conversation with head office, to either minimise it's size.. do without it entirely.. or anything/ anything/ anything on god's earth to help me.

 

Thanks, Zoothorn 

 

Unfortunately there are good reasons why in a small house you might need a buffer to achieve Vaillant's minimum system volume requirements.

 

Without knowing more about yr existing HP model (type and size) and the proposed replacement it is not easy to know why they are proposing a buffer where none was fitted before.

 

As @JamesPa and I have found, Vaillant are rather inflexible about these things. The installers will only fit systems that conform to their approved system schematics (drawings) and will not depart from them for fear of (i) warranty callouts (ii) loss of warranty cover (iii) loss of their approved installer status.

 

I do not think you need to worry too much about noise from the buffer tank, it has no active components or moving parts. In any case the installer should be able to programme the system so it does not run at all at night. If indeed you plan to run it at all, I am puzzled by your statement that you will not use it for heating, is it for hot water only then?

 

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

36 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Hi BeelB..

 

spot on, all of that- & thanks for engaging in my dilemma fully to have written this post.

 

All correct apart from: if I could have turned off the ashp, & just kept the boiler on, I would have done so. The whole system only has 1 big red 'scary' plastic round switch though. Not a separate one for just the CH.

 

With respect though, this is only an option I could have done (if indeed I did find such a separate switch) with the ashp which is to be removed. So whether or not I did isolate the CH/ turn off/ slept ok... it's not applicable, now.

 

I'm simply at the stage of the new system fitting. Which won't have the bedroom interruptions because the pump is in the outside fan unit in a monoblock system. So this noise aspect is water under the bridge THANK GOD (it having been my no.1 problem).

 

I'm still stuck at this buffer hurdle. Simply & only this. Where/ why/ what is it/ how can any small house be expected to accomodate such a huge thing/ why wasn't I told of it when I was planning the position for the new ashp hardware/ what can yiu think of to help me navigate the conversation with head office, to either minimise it's size.. do without it entirely.. or anything/ anything/ anything on god's earth to help me.

 

Thanks, Zoothorn 

So, again to be clear, the existing "split" system has been removed? Or is it still in situ pending the approval and sign off and install of a monoblock system? 

 

If it is in situ, you could look to simply having an electrician rewire the boiler and HP seperate. 

 

The other alternative, is the HP system must be linked in some way to the boiler, ie the control system decides which heataouece to use depending on the circumstance. It follows there should be a way in the control system to effectively command the system to not use the HP, either explicitly or by setting the parameters such that the HP never actually activates

 

This swap seems to be causing you a lot of angst, and maybe the easiest way is to avoid the swap in the first place 

 

 

 

As an aside, the buffer vessel itself should be silent, it's just a tank of water. There may be (depending on layout) a water circulation pump on or near it (or it may be elsewhere).  These are standard units, the same as used in boilers and other wet heating systems thought the land. They are generally very, very quiet. The exceptions would be if thet are running flat out and the pipe work has kinks and restrictions that cause noise, but that is not a heatpump issue, it's just bad plumbing. 

 

[S2D2]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

WHY DOESNT MY ASHP NOW, HAVE THIS BUFFER..... WHY IF THIS MONOBLOCK PROPOSITION IS A 'REPLACEMENT' (NOT AN 'ALTERNATIVE' SYSTEM),  DOES IT HAVE ONE ???

I don't know if you've stated elsewhere which model you currently have and which they are replacing it with, but the "old" arotherm has a stated minimum volume of 35l for the 11kW model. It's not clear whether this is with or without the "backup heater" I mentioned previously, but a different minimum system volume spec could explain the inclusion of a buffer if you are moving from an arotherm to an arotherm plus.

[HughF]

Why don't you just have air-air installed in one room? It's considerably simpler, and is dead simple to understand and operate.

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, joe90 said:

Well mine never made any noise. and I am not fkn liying.

 

Because it’s a different system that works in a different way 

 

if you refer to my post above simply ask them if they will instal without a buffer because you have no room, if the answer is yes, no problem. If the answer is no then you SIMPLY have to decide if you want to find room for it or not have the ASHP at all 🤷‍♂️.   Simples!!!

Haha.
 

Well my point you quoted here, was that as I think you'd understand, I don't trust a word Vaillant say about their stuff.
 

Even the installer -who did mine now, not affiliated with them & who is totally not at fault for the noise- said "Oh that box? [hydraulic unit] Won't make any noise that, it's got sound insulation look [pathetic black 'styrene bits around sides]" = I can't trust anyone at all spieling about this Vaillant hardware can I then. 
 

(Your similar unit from a different mfr.. doesn't make overnight noise).

 

Edit: Joe90 I have -pleaded- with then to fit it without a buffer. Begged them. They refuse. If they'd said yes... I wouldn't have any need for a single word of this thread: it wouldn't exist.

 

It is so far from simples as its possible to be!!

 

Zh

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

@sharpener Thanks for your posts.

 

I've tried to say what I have, & what's to be the replacement.

 

Now: Arotherm "split" 10kw? I think they were saying before install I need a 10.. but no mention anywhere on any hardware.

 

Hopefully: Arotherm(?) "monoblock" 10kw? I can only assume so, if, it's to be a replacement system: would you surmise so?

 

The only two things I know as fact, are between "...." marks.

 

Zoot

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, HughF said:

Why don't you just have air-air installed in one room? It's considerably simpler, and is dead simple to understand and operate.

Im sorry I don't understand what an air-air is. (Air fryer? I'm certainly just about ready to remove my own plums, & put them in one on high for 5 mins).

 

If an air-air an alternate system, the idea is n/ a:

 

I've been offered the monoblock by Vaillant. I cannot shop around other mfrs & other systems, even other systems of theirs. It's been chosen for me afaik.

 

 

[Declan52]

If you are reading a post and you have nothing worthwhile to say maybe just don't post anything that will cause something that will obviously rile another member up. 

[HughF]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Im sorry I don't understand what an air-air is. (Air fryer? I'm certainly just about ready to remove my own plums, & put them in one on high for 5 mins).

 

If an air-air an alternate system, the idea is n/ a:

 

I've been offered the monoblock by Vaillant. I cannot shop around other mfrs & other systems, even other systems of theirs. It's been chosen for me afaik.

 

 

air-air is air conditioning, heat or cold pour out of the unit depending on what mode it is in. Simple, fast to respond, costs nothing to install and run.

 

Why can't you shop around, is your landlord doing all this for you?

[zoothorn]

27 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

If you are reading a post and you have nothing worthwhile to say maybe just don't post anything that will cause something that will obviously rile another member up. 

Thank you Declan. Sense prevails.

[zoothorn]

28 minutes ago, HughF said:

air-air is air conditioning, heat or cold pour out of the unit depending on what mode it is in. Simple, fast to respond, costs nothing to install and run.

 

Why can't you shop around, is your landlord doing all this for you?

High Hugh. No it's my property, a small cottage (with a new  up/ 1 down extension put on).

 

My existing ashp was on a grant. Which kinda complicates in terms of what I should expect, & how far -you- think my complaint with this hardware Co, should go too I guess. Really does my nut in, because of course on the one hand I am grateful. Say so to them. But on the other hand, the hardware's ruined my cottage, my state of mind/ happiness, let alone my sleep.. & left me as cold as I was without CH before, because I can't turn it on, because that means you cannot sleep. Really say so to them. It's a double-head-fk.

 

Zoot

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Thank you mods, for not putting me in the BH doghouse.

 

The thread has just about run it's course anyway probably; as I think all ideas really have been kindly suggested.

 

Zh

[joe90]

So…..I believe having read all the above your choice zoot is to find room for a buffer (and ask how small they can make it) or look for something completely different 🤷‍♂️

[TonyT]

Fit Night storage heaters on the off peak electricity, mine are in 7.5p per unit of electricity so comparable with a good ASHP efficiency based on 29.96 per unit if day time electricity..

 

quiet, easy to control, no drama 

[AliG]

Having read all of the thread, just for clarity for everyone.

 

It looks like you just using the ASHP to heat hot water then and not for space heating? Unfortunately the installers probably cannot take this into consideration.

 

Before considering the new pump and buffer, have you tried noise insulating the hydraulic unit (interior part)? It would be akin to what an AV installer might due to reduce sound from a projector, they create a muffle box.

 

There are various solutions to the buffer issue -

 

Firstly, have they calculated the size correctly. 150L includes the volume of the water in your radiators. 500x1000mm suggests a 90L tank. This may well be right.

 

1. Put the buffer tank where the inside part of the split system is. It is just a water tank, it won't make any noise. this is the simplest solution. They are roughly the same size, the current hydraulic unit appears to be 440x350x720.

2. Put the buffer in the loft or outside and insulate around it. E.g. could a it be boxed in outside or in the loft.

3. Use an insulated buffer tank and put it in the loft/outside.

 

Ask the installer which solution he thinks would work best, put the onus back on him.

[HughF]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

High Hugh. No it's my property, a small cottage (with a new  up/ 1 down extension put on).

 

My existing ashp was on a grant. Which kinda complicates in terms of what I should expect, & how far -you- think my complaint with this hardware Co, should go too I guess. Really does my nut in, because of course on the one hand I am grateful. Say so to them. But on the other hand, the hardware's ruined my cottage, my state of mind/ happiness, let alone my sleep.. & left me as cold as I was without CH before, because I can't turn it on, because that means you cannot sleep. Really say so to them. It's a double-head-fk.

 

Zoot

 

 

 

 

Ah the good old 'grant' - messing up peoples heating systems since the introduction of said grant.

 

If this were mine, I'd do the following:

 

1. Politely decline their offer of any further equipment

2. Pay a plumber to install a direct unvented cylinder or a SunAmp.

3. Pay a local air-con company to install air-air and de-gas your split. Leave this old system in a condition where you can sell it on ebay/facebook.

 

This will leave you with a quiet system when it is off, instant heat when you want it turned on, and something that is cheap to run. It will also give you back your wall space.

[SteamyTea]

I am looking forward to this saga.

Any heating system is doomed to failure in this house.

[zoothorn]

17 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I am looking forward to this saga.

Any heating system is doomed to failure in this house.

This is known but simply not the point ST; the running of it  has nothing of relevance to what I'm asking on this thread, whatsoever.

 

You're just finding an excuse to have a dig at me. I don't see why you'd feel the need to post unhelpful sarcastic negativity. 

[zoothorn]

17 hours ago, HughF said:

Ah the good old 'grant' - messing up peoples heating systems since the introduction of said grant.

 

If this were mine, I'd do the following:

 

1. Politely decline their offer of any further equipment

2. Pay a plumber to install a direct unvented cylinder or a SunAmp.

3. Pay a local air-con company to install air-air and de-gas your split. Leave this old system in a condition where you can sell it on ebay/facebook.

 

This will leave you with a quiet system when it is off, instant heat when you want it turned on, and something that is cheap to run. It will also give you back your wall space.

High Hugh. Well I had no notion of grant installations as being anything but beneficial: my pure naiivity then. But even if 

I had done.. how could I refuse a new cylinder/ HW system even if the other bits were superflous-? I had no idea these extra ashp bits had to be left on, & that doing so would mean sleep disturbance. I can't be blamed for this. Nor the grant dept. Nor tye installer (with no mfr guidelines given to site the hydraulic unit away from bedrooms). It's Vaillant, the mfr who are solely to blame. And they have admitted as such too.

 

I can't possibly afford any alternative option but accept this replacement. I'd not have done the thread if had any other option.

 

Thanks Zoot 

[zoothorn]

18 hours ago, AliG said:

 

 

Hi 

18 hours ago, TonyT said:

Fit Night storage heaters on the off peak electricity, mine are in 7.5p per unit of electricity so comparable with a good ASHP efficiency based on 29.96 per unit if day time electricity..

 

quiet, easy to control, no drama 

 

Thanks, but I cannot afford any other additional CH system, even an extra rad, nor have the option to ask them to fit an insulated buffer instead (which being bigger, would be the polar opposite of what I'm trying to achieve here).

 

I am resigned & know I will be cold here. This is a given & known upon agreeing this ashp install I have now (despite the grant chap telling me how cosy I'd be after install: like your own body, I know this house, how cold it is, how impossible it is to heat even 1 big room with a big stove running flat out). 
 

Appreciated but getting warm.. isn't relevant to the thread. Only the buffer tank is. The last last hurdle to get over.
 

Edited August 30, 2023 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

18 hours ago, AliG said:

Having read all of the thread, just for clarity for everyone.

 

It looks like you just using the ASHP to heat hot water then and not for space heating? Unfortunately the installers probably cannot take this into consideration.

 

Before considering the new pump and buffer, have you tried noise insulating the hydraulic unit (interior part)? It would be akin to what an AV installer might due to reduce sound from a projector, they create a muffle box.

 

There are various solutions to the buffer issue -

 

Firstly, have they calculated the size correctly. 150L includes the volume of the water in your radiators. 500x1000mm suggests a 90L tank. This may well be right.

 

1. Put the buffer tank where the inside part of the split system is. It is just a water tank, it won't make any noise. this is the simplest solution. They are roughly the same size, the current hydraulic unit appears to be 440x350x720.

2. Put the buffer in the loft or outside and insulate around it. E.g. could a it be boxed in outside or in the loft.

3. Use an insulated buffer tank and put it in the loft/outside.

 

Ask the installer which solution he thinks would work best, put the onus back on him.

 

Hi AliG. This is most helpful thanks.

 

The current hydraulic unit now, has been deemed not fit for purpose after 8x engineer visits. To be decommissioned. So, one can conclude that it's hydraulic unit noise was wrong/ at fault. So I am not considering muffling it or anything, as it is to be removed. This took me my 18month battle to achieve.

 

So looking forward. Your buffer siting options are fantastic info; just what I needed help on. I am not happy though, even if you say it won't make noise (bc Ive had 18 months of Vaillant telling me this via 8x engineer visits) with this tank situated 1.5m from a child's head fir example. Just no way after my awful experience. I have no trust in them.

 

So with your info here my buffer siting options seem to be A) to try & rid the thing altogether (& accept any limitations to function, & to the guarantee). B) Do considerable build work at my expense to house the damn thing outside, or, C) inthe loft. Or D) get them to provide a smaller buffer, which CAN -just- be accommodated in a downstairs area corner.

 

Imagine a council house, & someone at the last minute landing a 1mx0.5m tank you were not told of, saying I have also to accommodate this within my council house. THIS is where I'm at chaps.
 

Thanks alot, Zoot

 

 

[TonyT]

Highlight to them your mental health issues and ask them to hold the installation

 

get a copy of the heat loss calculations done for every room in the house to determine how they have come to their design decisions.

 

ask to see a schematic of the proposed installation

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Highlight to them your mental health issues and ask them to hold the installation

 

get a copy of the heat loss calculations done for every room in the house to determine how they have come to their design decisions.

 

ask to see a schematic of the proposed installation

 

 

 

 

Thoughtful post TT, appreciated. 
 

I'm a but reticent about providing them with, or highlighting the heat loss calcs.. because someone (possibly installer) along the way of this install said "yr house isn't suitable, we don't think an ashp idea is feasable". I of course ironically chimed in pls pls just can we go with it?? (again only as it'd give me a new cylinder was my thinking/ £1k saving to me is alot). Grant folks relented. So in a way I "deserve" my issues.. a cynic would say.

 

Hmm. Might be shooting meself in the foot if I dig this heat loss calcs subject up/ possibly giving them an exit strategy to pull out of the offer you see.

 

Will think, thanks.

 

Zoot