Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[Big Jimbo]

@-rick- so is the heat going through the ceiling, through the floor, and rising through the upper floor between the outside wall, and the PIR in the wood frame ? Then rising through into the roof space, and being blown out through the tiles / eaves vents ?

[-rick-]

Just now, Big Jimbo said:

@-rick- so is the heat going through the ceiling, through the floor, and rising through the upper floor between the outside wall, and the PIR in the wood frame ? Then rising through into the roof space, and being blown out through the tiles / eaves vents ?

 

Honestly not sure. @zoothorn has attempted to seal off the outside so we should be talking just internal air bypassing the insulation and touching the cold wall but I struggle to see why the space just isn't taking heat if it's well sealed.

 

One of the reasons I think these two upper rooms should be approached first is that any hidden issues behind these walls (and maybe at the floor/wall junction) can be addressed.

[Big Jimbo]

@-rick- if the framed filled with Pir is not tight to the wall, and stands off the wall at the top and bottom, chances are you have the tent effect, just like badly done dot and dab ?

[-rick-]

Yes. Sorry if it wasn't clear, I agree with the plasterboard tent description. Just wanted to claify the build up.

[Big Jimbo]

So the thick brick block, or stone wall is in effect doing nothing. The heat in the air gap is not being obtained by the wall. Its being washed away by that space being open to free air.

[Big Jimbo]

So, as i said, Holes around the top and bottom, through the plasterboard, and the 25mm PIR behind it, into the air gap top and bottom, and seal the bloody things up. That way, you have a dead air space, and a chance for that air to retain heat.

[Big Jimbo]

Might cause dead rot, dry rot, cold rot, snot rot, or whatever bloody else. Zoot the hoot (no offense fella) will be dead by then from the fecking cold. Just because you have some shite old stone crumbly walls or whatever, does not stop you heating a house up. The bloody heat escaping is what stops the bloody walls eventually heating up.

If you build 4 outside walls 1m thick, and light a bloody great fire in the middle of the room. You might still not get the walls to heat up if you forgot to put a bloody roof on.

Zoots house is freezing cold, because no matter how much heat he pumps in, The place leaks like a sieve. Block up a load of those escape routes, and retain the heat within the building. The heat never reaches the stone cold walls, because it's all gone before it gets there.

 

[Big Jimbo]

Zoot has got some mass, and that should store some heat, and block some heat loss. althought might have a shite U value it would still do the above. It ain't because the heat is gone before it gets there.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, -rick- said:

 

I'm sorry I missed that. In which case changes needed.

 

 

Do you notice much difference in comfort with the new setup?

 

 

I think if I was in your position I'd want to attack this before attacking the floor. It's much less work and you've said you don't use the rooms much so tearing into them should be less disruptive than the floor. It should be cheaper too and you might be able to use the opportunity to stuff insulation under the floor of the bedrooms. Result might be that those two rooms become much easier to heat. You could move your living room area up there and be warm while then considering what to do downstairs and stopping the cold from coming down the walls will likely help downstairs also.

 

Edit to add, I think I saw you said you think the void behind the plasterboard/PIR is 4". If so, filling that with mineral wool (replacing the PIR) brings you up to pretty modern insulation standards. It's also something you can do one or two sheets of plasterboard at a time limiting mess and that feeling of risk in tearing the place up to make a change.

Do I notice any difference in comfort (with the replacement Monobloc, for the old Split system). Hard to say. Apologies you are dealing with rather a simpleton here Rick.
 

I can obviously notice the rads can get warmer. But now, I only have them on for 2x AM & PM blocks of 2 hours. Wheras before, the rads came on/ off basically during the day.

 

So to answer your Q: erm, I think I'd have to say kinda even stevens.

 

Tbh I find all heating system infuriatingly complicated, that I can't understand why the rad is sometimes on, then a bit later it's off. You mentioned before, about TRV's, as if you expected them to be on my rads. But I don't have any on my rads. When I had them on a property before, I found them infuriatingly impossible to understand. One minute the rad is on flatout, & I was too hot, then half an hour later the rad wasn't seemingly on (but it was within the block time the heaters were meant to be on) & the room was pretty cold again.

 

My parents place, is THE most unfathomably infuriatingly impossible to understand heating situation. I stay few days, & so they put the storage heater on for me. Medium settings on both dials, nothing daft. At 3am O wake in a sweat, the room gallopingly hot.. & the damn thing's almost flat out hot. At 3am. At the very time you DON'T want a radiator on. Then at 9pm, it's barely warm at all. Just when you DO want the radiator on. 
 

The installer mentioned something about setback time. And my head explodes. Setback time, TRV's, I mean jesusH. I just want to be able to put a rad on from 6-8pm, medium hot. Any rad. Any system. But I'm just not allowed to. It's fkn nuts. And so at my folk's house, 1st thing I do, in midwinter as I get there.. is go upstairs & switch the storage heater off. So I can sleep without being woken up in a sauna at 4:23am.

 

Sorry I digress yet again. TRV's & thermostats separate from them.. & my head explodes. I just can't deal with these stupid UK heating systems. So tbh I'm best off with a hottie & a leccyB under my butt seeing my breath at home here!!

 

Thanks, Zoot

[zoothorn]

41 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Yes. Sorry if it wasn't clear, I agree with the plasterboard tent description. Just wanted to claify the build up.

Me back on track..

 

Yes now I understand the analogy of the tent. I think. Do I? No hang on.. I don't think I do.

 

Tent. Right so I put up a tent. It has 4 sides, and is cold in the middle. But the middle has to warmer than the outside. Fk. Panic.
 

Are the 4 thin tent walls (sat upon the ground in a perimeter rectangle) the point here.. or the area within the tent-?
 

Nope. I don't understand the tent analogy. I can't cope with these boxes of text. I need people doing jazz hands or something that I can see like a 4 year old!!

Zoot

 

[-rick-]

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I can obviously notice the rads can get warmer. But now, I only have them on for 2x AM & PM blocks of 2 hours. Wheras before, the rads came on/ off basically during the day.

 

If before the system was supposed to be on all the time and was set to 17C and yet the rads were turning on/off while you could see your own breath then the system wasn't doing what it should. The rads should have been warm continuously.

 

When I was skimming history I saw some talk about the thermometer but not the full context. Where was this located on the old system? On the new? (Thermometer if not separate is likely the controller with the LCD screen for the system). To work properly in your property it really needs to be located in the coldest room.

 

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

My parents place, is THE most unfathomably infuriatingly impossible to understand heating situation. I stay few days, & so they put the storage heater on for me. Medium settings on both dials, nothing daft. At 3am O wake in a sweat, the room gallopingly hot.. & the damn thing's almost flat out hot. At 3am. At the very time you DON'T want a radiator on. Then at 9pm, it's barely warm at all. Just when you DO want the radiator on. 

 

My previous flat had storage heaters, they drove me insane and why I desperately searched for a flat with gas/central heating when I bought this place (unusual in modern flats). People on here claim modern ones work much better so long as you know how to set them up but I suspect most people don't and so suffer the behaviour you describe.

 

[-rick-]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Yes now I understand the analogy of the tent. I think. Do I? No hang on.. I don't think I do.

 

Most commonly used to describe new-builds where they have lots of insulation but also lots of airgaps that effectively outside air bypasses the insulation and sits behind the plasterboard of the room. (Plasterboard sealing off much of the airflow into the room so you don't necessarily feel the drafts but you do feel the cold). So the plasterboard acts as well as a tent does. All the insulation and brick is effectively bypassed and useless from a heating point of view.

 

In your case, used to describe what seems likely that outside air is getting directly behind the plasterboard/PIR upstairs effectively preventing any heat build up in the stone walls.

 

Thick stone walls would normally build heat given enough time - 2ft solid walls if heated right should be a more comfortable/stable environment than victorian brick solid walls. I've lived in a number of houses with brick solid walls and they are cold when the heating is off but warm up fairly easily when the heating is on.

[Big Jimbo]

Zoot. I am very jealous of your cabin overlooking the water. If i ever become homeless, i am going to squat in there.

Live in the cabin. Go for a walk for your mental health, every day, and collect wood. Keep your little wood burner ticking over 24 hours a day, and when you are too warm, (even in the winter) open the window. Sit in your armchair, and write a great book. (We all have One good book in us). When you are too hot, it will make you sleepy. Just let yourself drift off, regardless of time of day. Sounds way more fun than living in your house fella.

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, -rick- said:

 

If before the system was supposed to be on all the time and was set to 17C and yet the rads were turning on/off while you could see your own breath then the system wasn't doing what it should. The rads should have been warm continuously.

 

When I was skimming history I saw some talk about the thermometer but not the full context. Where was this located on the old system? On the new? (Thermometer if not separate is likely the controller with the LCD screen for the system). To work properly in your property it really needs to be located in the coldest room.

 

 

My previous flat had storage heaters, they drove me insane and why I desperately searched for a flat with gas/central heating when I bought this place (unusual in modern flats). People on here claim modern ones work much better so long as you know how to set them up but I suspect most people don't and so suffer the behaviour you describe.

 

Ahhh... relief. I'm not the only one!! You're the only one on here. I've mentioned this on BuildHub before, my folk's place example etc. And the only replies were kinda a collective "yes storage heaters are meant to do that (IE belt out heat) at 3:38 am".

 

Prior to this explanation though, as I had no other notion other than with my folk's rads doing this insanity at 3:55, it seemed completely logical to me, that their old brown/ beige storage heaters, were long gone/ knackered/ & acting up by kicking off at 3am (further evidence I was further convinced, of their being barely warm at 9pm too).

 

So then, at the advice on here, & because I was concerned my  84/88 yr old folks needed to update their rads to be wrm at 9pm.. I persuaded them to spend £3k on two new ones. 
 

Once up & running, I noticed the new ones were belting hot at 4:11 am.. & barely warm at 9pm. I asked WTF on here etc.. & got the "yes they're meant to do that- they're working correctly" reply I mentioned earlier in this post. So, the old rads weren't knackered at all. The new ones perform exactly the same. My old folks scrimp & save for every £1 eating macaroni cheese 3x a week in their tiny house.. & I felt absolutely terrible. A huge lesson learnt that was. 
 

--

 

Honestly such a relief to read your post here, as you sound as if you understand what I describe. Furthermore found the same inherrant insanity with them, as I did/ still do.

 

Thanks Zoot

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Zoot. I am very jealous of your cabin overlooking the water. If i ever become homeless, i am going to squat in there.

Live in the cabin. Go for a walk for your mental health, every day, and collect wood. Keep your little wood burner ticking over 24 hours a day, and when you are too warm, (even in the winter) open the window. Sit in your armchair, and write a great book. (We all have One good book in us). When you are too hot, it will make you sleepy. Just let yourself drift off, regardless of time of day. Sounds way more fun than living in your house fella.

Ahh thanks BigJ.

 

It's THE most wonderful little space, the ammount of times Ive snoozed off almost as soon as I put a C4 ipad download doco on, with the stream noise outside.
 

It's just running the gauntlet wrapped up for that 1st 1/2 hour freezing until it's just cosy enough.. that's the caveat. Older you get, the bigger a bugbear that is to face. But it takes just 40mins to get from 0 to 19*C. And your mood increaces in harmony, as you recall with your tent as a kid, the campfire etc. It really does have that diddy thrill factor of 'camping out' at the end of the garden. Even as a 55 yr old baldy barst, with terrible breath, athletes foot, bad back, appaling footrot, overpowering BO, piles, squiffy eyes, what else can I throw in the pot.. my limp, frightful flatulence, & my terrible drooling habit. You see I can do all that.. in my fkn cabin. Still wanna come stay?

 

Zoot

[Big Jimbo]

Hold up the Zoot. When im squatting in there, you will only be allowed to visit by appointment. Don't get cheeky now.

[zoothorn]

11 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

Hold up the Zoot. When im squatting in there, you will only be allowed to visit by appointment. Don't get cheeky now.

I can do torch morse code from kitchen window BigJ.
 

Apologies for the daftness interlude chaps.

 

--

 

Tents. I'm not quite on board with the analogy, if the suggestion is my sittingroom is an air-leaky tent. I thought the analogy was a tent sat upon the 'roof' of my sittingroom, on it's ceiling. IE the tent is the area above it, pressing down it's cold onto the roof. I don't have any air leaks into the sittingroom. I have massive cold ingress, but no direct draughts, no air leaks. Those are easy to address by anyone, & I did so within 6 months. I have a porch tagged onto the old front door (this old front door opens into the main sit'room), which is enclosed/ has a upvc main front door itself, porch is cold of course, but no airgaps of any note, to affect onwards the old front door, which Ive redone the door fitting of, added thick excluder at gap at btm, then a thick curtain to cover across it. No air leaks in from anywhere into this room. Cold ingress yes massively, but cold leaky air, no.
 

So I'm not on board with the tent analogy, if the analogy applies to my sit'room.

 

I can't put any insulation in the floor between the sit'room ceiling & the 2x bedrooms above: the floor is so thin, & I have beams giving character in sit'room: certainly don't want to do away with those, or fill each individual section between beams with 1" celotex (all I could fit in), plasterboard over, finish off. I've got 30x sections. 
 

I'm trying to understand the idea of drilling small holes, upstairs. I think I'm just getting that idea. But up there, I have 4x big areas before the wall's airgaps, above each window & the door in the sit'room p. Cavities of approx 1m x 0.75m x 0.75m. Now I think it's probably sensible to address these, first. But describing them/ what they are, as Ive never seen anything like them.. nigh on impossible.
 

It's a collection of fairly hodge-podge amatuer building work, that's been dumped ontop of the rectangular stone 4-wall cottage shell you see. Only my extension on one far end of it, is properly built.

 

Thanks, Zoot
 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by zoothorn

[ProDave]

The "tent" thing is where a structure has been built inside the stone walls of the building, in this case plasterboard supported on a probably thin timber frame.  If this is not detailed well, then this cavity between the actual stone wall and the plasterboard might be open all the way up to the loft.  So it allows cold air from the loft to get in between the actual building structure and the room.

 

So if the walls were perfectly insulated, the rooms can still be bold and lose heat quickly because of this constant supply of cold air from the loft into the gap keeping the plasterboard walls cold.

 

The same can apply on a modern brick / block build where dot and dab plasterboard is poorly detailed.

 

The detail it properly, the entire perimiter of each and every wall needs to be sealed to the actual stone work all the way around top bottom and sides so there is no air path for the cold air to get from the loft to the gap.

[Dillsue]

If I've understood your upstairs build you got stud wall rooms built within the original stone walls? If that's correct, then that's your "tent".....the stud wall rooms upstairs.

 

If that's what you've got and the gap between the stud walls and stone walls is open and ventilated to the loft/roof then you'll be loosing heat up that gap....25mm PIR between the studs isn't alot of insulation particularly if it's loose fitted and not sealed into position tight against the plaster board.

 

If you're  thinking of sealing this gap to the loft then I would get a professional condensation risk analysis done before you seal it up. At the moment most of the water vapour permeating through the stud walls is vented so has little opportunity to condense on the inside of the stone wall. If you block the gap at the top then you'll loose this ventilation and most of the water vapour will remain in the gap between the stud wall and the stone wall. If this condenses then you could have water running down the inside of the stone wall and running into the joists/ceiling/room below.

 

If you want to insulate the stud wall rooms upstairs then you'll likely need to strip the plasterboard, insulate fully between the studs(70-100mm?), insulate over the studs with another 25/50mm PIR, tape the joints and then plasterboard.

 

Cross posted with @ProDave

Edited 12 hours ago by Dillsue

[Dillsue]

As to whether you can ultimately heat your stone cottage, have a read of this posted in another thread https://interactive.carbonbrief.org/factcheck/heatpumps/index.html

 

Note the stone church heated with a heat pump

[-rick-]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

No air leaks in from anywhere into this room. Cold ingress yes massively, but cold leaky air, no.

 

Your confidence in stating this makes me want to revisit this again. I previously asked where your ASHP thermostat was. I think you missed that. When you had your old system the radiators should have been on continuously so long as it was cold in the sitting room. If that was not the case then it's likely the thermostat was located somewhere that was getting warm (new extension?) and that was then turning the whole system off before enough heat got into the sitting room, hence the sitting room is always cold. If you have actual air leakage or large 'tent like' areas with outside air nearby then this doesn't apply. But from what you've said I don't think this does apply to downstairs.

 

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

So I'm not on board with the tent analogy, if the analogy applies to my sit'room.

 

No, it was with regard to your upstairs rooms

 

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

I can't put any insulation in the floor between the sit'room ceiling & the 2x bedrooms above: the floor is so thin, & I have beams giving character in sit'room: certainly don't want to do away with those, or fill each individual section between beams with 1" celotex (all I could fit in), plasterboard over, finish off. I've got 30x sections. 

 

I was thinking if you were working in the upstairs room, it wouldn't be super hard to lift a few floor boards and clean out/stuff the space with fluffy stuff (definitely not PIR as it's too rigid and you wont get a good seal). It's likely that you already have some floor boards that were lifted to install radiators, so an easy place to start. If there is no void in the floor (radiator pipes all run along walls, not into the floor) then this doesn't apply.

 

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

I'm trying to understand the idea of drilling small holes, upstairs. I think I'm just getting that idea. But up there, I have 4x big areas before the wall's airgaps, above each window & the door in the sit'room p. Cavities of approx 1m x 0.75m x 0.75m. Now I think it's probably sensible to address these, first. But describing them/ what they are, as Ive never seen anything like them.. nigh on impossible.
 

It's a collection of fairly hodge-podge amatuer building work, that's been dumped ontop of the rectangular stone 4-wall cottage shell you see. Only my extension on one far end of it, is properly built.

Given the work you've previously done, I think taking off the plasterboard and replacing after installing insulation is within your capabilities. So it would likely be better than drilling a few holes and foaming, but the foaming is certainly easier but might hide issues.

 

One of the reasons to address the upstairs rooms first is that gives you the option to spend evenings up there rather than in the sitting room and it's a much easier and cheaper project however you do it.

 

Edit: I believe I read you have 250mm of loft insulation. So that plus better wall insulation should make those upstairs rooms relatively easy to keep warm.

Edited 11 hours ago by -rick-

[zoothorn]

@ProDave

Apologies I've not made the basic structure of my cottage clear, because the tent analogy doesn't fit (hence my confusion trying to understand it).

 

The original cottage was simple, 4 stone walls in a rectangle, pitched slate roof ontop. So it was a single story cottage. Effectively one big room (my sittingroom).

 

In the 80's the original roof was removed. To facilitate two extra bedrooms plonked ontop. Bad brick 'decent amateur' standard affair. 1" of celotex in the cavity, between two brick courses.

 

A new roof was put ontop. So now the cottage is 2-story.

Then a porch added, 80's similar build standard. 
 

Then another extension added, tagged onto one end. A single story (same poor quality build/ evidently same "builder" so far done the 3x additions).

 

Lastly my 2021 extention, tagged onto opposite end. 2 story, good build standard.

 

I'll try dig out my 60's photos as it was originally: I'm worn out typing-describing, so I'll take photos of the details now/ add instead, as they're easily added thankfully on BHub.

 

Thanks, Zoot

[zoothorn]

Right!! Found it pronto! 
 

Original here. The far end addition removed, & single story kitchen/ bathroom (with pitched slate roof) built on here, 80's.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

Photo 1 here, is one of the 4 areas, around the sides of the main sit'room, which surely introduce cold ingress, downwards. 3x are above windows, 1x is above door.

 

No idea what they're called, because I've never seen anything of the like before. Where my yellow marker is (square of paper).. right here is a board of some kind. If I knock it sounds hollow. This one's the biggest, over the 1 big window. 

 

Pic 2 shows upstairs, above it: a sort of boxed affair. Likely a cavity inside where the bedroom cold air, sits down directly onto my main sittingroom ceiling edges.

 

These 4x areas are -separate- from the ring of cold loft air, trapped in the 4" cavities behind my bedroom plasterboard walls, which sit around the perimeter of the sittingroom ceiling: I can only describe this ring. I cannot photo it.

 

Thanks, Zoot

[zoothorn]

Here's as it was when I bought it, a scruffy property. Woman who lived here sold it, due to the cold inside apparently.

 

Far end is the kitchen/ bathroom 80's single story addition. 
 

My yellow block area, is where my 2021 (2-story) extension is.   The porch is airtight enough, no draughts evident, & you then enter house via the next door into sittingroom. Thick curtain blocks this door off nicely, once inside.

My pointer aims to the start of the crappy brick 1st floor addition. 1 brick course? (possibly 2 if I'm lucky) & no idea if even 1" of celotex between: certainly feels like no insulation added.

 

Thanks, Zoot