Ed_MK Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) Good Afternoon All, As usual I am looking for a bit of advice. I am in the process of submitting full planning and have already had a "favourable" pre-app assessment/consultaion We are building a small house on some land we have acquired from our parents. We are in the process of also submitting a right of access to the road (which seems also to be going well..fingers crossed). Our main issue is SERVICES ...the problem we have is that the recent development "across the road" is unadopted and as far as we are able to ascertain we cannot get easily connected with anything ....further to that if we stay on the same side of the road ..its 100m at LEAST to the nearest curent point for only SOME services. We have consulted with Gas and Electric and Also Freshwater ..and they have advised us the easiest way could be to connect "through" our families property...(which they have no issue) and create a "wayleave?" into the deeds. So now we get to wastewater ....(and here it gets tricky) Our Parents are on a Cesspit ..have been for 30 years and SOME of the adjoining properties still are (as it is an old village) ..there is mains sewage now on their road ....but i suppose a few have thought if it ain't broke ....etc etc. So we stated off looking at various cesspits, treatments etc etc for our new house ...as we didnt fancy the idea of waste pipes struggling to shift (god knows what) 50 metres... I have just had a VERY interesting conversation with a company ...so I am looking for your guys learned knowledge. He has suggested a "pumping station" ..I have never come across them ?! I mean we are digging a services trench anyway for the rest of the services ....and we are also thinking that our parents sewage is also on that side of the house. so what do you think ...Pumping Station OK ...for building regs etc ? would it be simple to "connect up" or at the same time channel our parents waste to the mains sewage ? I plan on doing most of the donkey work myself ..any advice chaps? your help is as always appreciated I attach the pump that was recommended on PDF and also an image of our area Red = Our Land where we hope to Build Blue = Our Parents Land Green = the proposed path of other services FEKA_VS brochure.pdf Edited August 24, 2017 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Help everybody and connect their sewage as well will probably increase the value of their property as people often don't like the cesspit emptying regime / idea! There is probably a sweet spot in the cost value equations of the options that will tell you which way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) Pump stations are used when the levels between the site foul drain invert level and the main sewer invert level are such that you can't use gravity. They also allow a smaller bore pipe to feed to the main sewer, usually 63mm MDPE, rather than the standard 110mm foul drain pipe. Cess pits are now practically forbidden for a new build; they are only allowed as a last resort, if there is no other foul drain option, simply because of the nuisance and cost associated with having them pumped out two or three times a year or more. A septic tank is the same - the Environment Agency are pushing hard (it was going to be made law, as it is in France) for all new builds that cannot physically connect to a main sewer to have to be connected to sewage treatment plant. A sewage treatment plant, unlike a septic tank, treats the effluent internally, usually via aerobic bacteria, so that the discharge is non-toxic and has a low biological oxygen demand. This makes the effluent from a treatment plant suitable for direct connection to a soakaway or a continuously flowing watercourse (with a permit to discharge). There are plans to register all septic tank installations and gradually force them all to be changed to treatment plants, because septic tank leach fields just stop working after around 10 to 15 years, causing toxic discharges to the land where the drains are located. This is a significant environmental problem in some areas, but the government have been dragging their heels over doing anything about it. I suspect that the Environment Agency, who will be consulted by the planners, will veto a cess pit connection, may well veto a septic tank, and will insist on either a mains drainage connection or a treatment plant, depending on how the treated effluent can be disposed of. Edited August 24, 2017 by JSHarris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 42 minutes ago, Ed_MK said: [...] I mean we are digging a services trench anyway for the rest of the services ....and we are also thinking that our parents sewage is also on that side of the house. so what do you think ...Pumping Station OK ...for building regs etc ? would it be simple to "connect up" or at the same time channel our parents waste to the mains sewage ? Pretty standard stuff. A few of us on BH use pumping stations; use the search box and look for posts that contain terms related to pumping, or pumping station or similar (put in the odd deliberate spelling mistake) Whatever you do (and the pun is not intended, but it's apposite) bottom this out before submitting an application. It is not uncommon for people to build without giving too much thought to their foul drainage because it stinks. And so place themselves in a world of soft and smelly stuff. It stinks not to think it through that's what. You have to follow the General Binding Rules. Take it to bed with you and read it thoroughly, read it on the loo, read it on the train, read it on the bus, read it on the beach, and be sure to refer to it closely when talking to company reps. That'll keep everything smelling sweet. Ian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I done similar with building in my parents. I had to get way leaves to discharge sewer and rainwater into there run. They where going to make me upgrade the length of pipe from the connection point to the main sewer from 100mm to 150mm. It's only 2m across the boundary so they agreed it was pointless. What is stopping the development from getting adopted??? You are only putting in the plans now so realistically you have at least 2 years before you will be moving in so plenty of time for the new development to be adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 We are putting in a pumping station due to adverse invert levels. We will be installing a tank which will then pump sewage into the mains sewer in the road. As far a I have understood it, there is no Building Regulations approval needed for a pumping station. The guide is that the pumping station should be large enough to hold 24 hours worth of waste. I have yet to decide on whether the station should be a single or dual pump version and whether it should be alarmed. Any views welcomed. My own thoughts are a single pump version with alarm giving me enough time to arrange a callout should the alarm trigger. I am hesitant about the dual pump version as the second pump is a redundancy built into the system. All being well, the second pump may never operate until the crucial moment arrives, unless a regular testing regime is in place. If a regime isnt in place, the second pump may fail due to it seizing up or similar making the investment worthless anyways. I think the alarm is an important addition into the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 When we lived in Scotland we had a pump station, as the house was at the bottom of a steep drive. It never gave any trouble in the five years we were there, and there was no spare pump, or alarm. I did lift the lid a few times to check all was well, and it looked as if changing the pump would have been an easy enough job. It was on a length of chain, so just needed pulling up, hosing down and replacing with a new one. An alarm and a spare pump kept ready to fit seems a good plan. I have a effluent spare pump and alarm on our treatment plant, as that has a pumped outlet. I can't see the point of a dual pump system, as that's like storing the spare pump in effluent all the time. I'd rather have the spare somewhere warm and dry, so you can be reasonably sure that it'll work when it's fitted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Declan52 said: I done similar with building in my parents. I had to get way leaves to discharge sewer and rainwater into there run. They where going to make me upgrade the length of pipe from the connection point to the main sewer from 100mm to 150mm. It's only 2m across the boundary so they agreed it was pointless. What is stopping the development from getting adopted??? You are only putting in the plans now so realistically you have at least 2 years before you will be moving in so plenty of time for the new development to be adopted. well time is pressing Declan . living with in laws is nice but. ..not ideal. not sure about why it isn't adopted over the road. .possibly as the developer is still building on parts of the estate. ..water. .gas..and electric all said he same thing..and of course. .the road would need traffic management and knowing roadworks. ...I DOUBT that when the trench is dug once that all the services will be rushing to do it that day LOL. so that means potentially 3 digs and 3 charges and waits for traffic management approval...even IF the developer allows us to connect...and currently the lack of response means that we just are too small an issue to be replied to even...just no money in it for them...you know know how us LITTLE PEOPLE get treated. .. (sigh ) Edited August 25, 2017 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 13 hours ago, JSHarris said: When we lived in Scotland we had a pump station, as the house was at the bottom of a steep drive. It never gave any trouble in the five years we were there, and there was no spare pump, or alarm. I did lift the lid a few times to check all was well, and it looked as if changing the pump would have been an easy enough job. It was on a length of chain, so just needed pulling up, hosing down and replacing with a new one. An alarm and a spare pump kept ready to fit seems a good plan. I have a effluent spare pump and alarm on our treatment plant, as that has a pumped outlet. I can't see the point of a dual pump system, as that's like storing the spare pump in effluent all the time. I'd rather have the spare somewhere warm and dry, so you can be reasonably sure that it'll work when it's fitted. Precisely my thoughts. The price uplift on a dual pump system over a single pump system is around £800 and while I dont know detail spec on the pump, but good quality submersible pumps are under £200, leaving plenty of money in the bank for a few replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Just bear in mind a pump has to terminate in a chamber and then the connection to the main sewer - you can't connect the MDPE directly to the mains. Why not look at upgrading your parents to a packaged plant and share the unit ..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Re a road crossing for services. That is up to YOU to be well organised. I had to cross the road for water, electricity and telephone. As you say, there is no way you will get all 3 out on the same day. So as it happens, Scottish water gave the cheapest price for the road crossing, so they were the ones that did it. So while the trench was open for the water pipe, as it got filled back in again I installed a duct for telephone and another duct for electricity, at the approporiate depths, so when the other utilities turned up, the duct was already under the road for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 Hi All. an update to this ....now we have our planning and we are finalising things for the conditions and Building Regulations. I have been advised that we cannot REALISTICALLY run all the services in the one trench via our parents land. the reason is apparently wastewater must be 3.5m away from any water supply pipes ....and we only have a 2.2m gap at the side of the house to run the trench So we will have to connect it at the front, with the added cost and all the traffic management shennanigans ...sigh. On the original plans we submitted ..it shown the service trench ALL services within.. now of course the fresh water will be going to the front ..will this be an issue for planning ? ..we already have consent on the original submission hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 31 minutes ago, Ed_MK said: Reason is apparently wastewater must be 3.5m away from any water supply pipes ... Says who...?? WRAS says 350mm... has someone put a typo in the dimensions ..??!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 30 minutes ago, Ed_MK said: Hi All. an update to this ....now we have our planning and we are finalising things for the conditions and Building Regulations. I have been advised that we cannot REALISTICALLY run all the services in the one trench via our parents land. the reason is apparently wastewater must be 3.5m away from any water supply pipes ....and we only have a 2.2m gap at the side of the house to run the trench So we will have to connect it at the front, with the added cost and all the traffic management shennanigans ...sigh. On the original plans we submitted ..it shown the service trench ALL services within.. now of course the fresh water will be going to the front ..will this be an issue for planning ? ..we already have consent on the original submission hmmm Who has quoted that a foul drain has to be 3.5m from a water supply pipe? Sounds wrong to me, as if that was the case there are a lot of lanes around here where there wouldn't be any sewers and water pipes. I can't see anything in building regs to support this at all, as @PeterW says, I reckon someone has their units mixed up, and has assumed that 350mm is 350cm............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 Actually ..I see now it was 3m not 3.5m email below ...unless I am reading it wrong PS ...the names have been obscured to protect the innocent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 I know its hard to get a head around someone else,s layout, but i have produced a drawing (much simplified I must add!) I have tried to add what i think is relevant. I have put the heights of the land in (mm) compared to the datum i sunk at Road Level ...that is the road at MY side, to avoid confusion The nice chap laying my slab tells me that its height when finished will be approximately 250mm above median ground house footprint level (which works out at 230mm+250mm so I have called it 500m to the top of the slab above the datum point. He tells me it is QUITE common to lay the waste UNDER the slab (which is 1m deep) ..so I have marked that as the larger dashed line, I must admit any pipe UNDER something always worries me " The other utilities were planned to go "around" and into the same trench, which as you can see passes in the 2.5m gap between our parents house and the border wall. After all the hullabuloo of putting waste and water in the same trench ...I got quoted a SIMILAR price from Anglian Water to make a connection at the front of our property! ...so this might be the way forward ? As you can see the "run" from our house to through my parents to the services cluster on their rd is quite long ! SO i suppose this will have an effect on mainly the FALL in the sewage pipe If you are reading this for the first time ...you are probably thinking ...WHY THE HELL DOESN'T HE CONNECT ON HIS OWN RD! LOL Well 2 reasons ... 1. The road we have planning for does not have any other houses on that side, the houses on the other side are on "unadopted services" and the closes connection to me (avoiding the land owner over the way) is 150m 2. the second reason is our parents. When they bough the house yonks ago ...ALL the properties were on Cesspits here, but of course 30 years on .. there is now sewers running down the road ..SO as they are getting on a bit (75+)...and if you have ever had to rod a cesspit run when it gets clogged ..you will know there is a good reason to go on mains sewage ....:) So the through was as we were connecting, we could "run theirs through too" ? apologies if the attached drawing is a bit basic and unconventional ...but what are your thoughts ? services_simplified.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Ed_MK said: Actually ..I see now it was 3m not 3.5m email below ...unless I am reading it wrong PS ...the names have been obscured to protect the innocent? Errr that’s still wrong ...!! It talks about an easement there too - that seems to be a different matter entirely ..! What you may be creating is a lateral sewer if you are connecting your house to your parents and then to the main sewer. This lateral - which only relates to the section from where the second property joins the run and then meets the main sewer - has to be built to a standard that is adoptable. From memory, Anglian water don’t do sewage so the standard would be the Severn Trent one and they have a decent guide for developers on their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 (edited) @Ed_MK (typing this on a small phone screen so apologies in advance) some quick thoughts: 1) I’m guessing that the easement of 3m that Anglian Water mention would normally apply to a public supply - your pipe will be private so not subject to the same legal access requirements. You would normally lay the pipe to your boundary and they make the final connection. Having said all that it sounds like you now have the option of getting your water from the road on the opposite side which would be a good idea. 2) Foul sewer. You will need to find out the invert depth of the public sewer pipe at the point where you want to connect. This will be marked on a public record drawing that you should be able to access by making enquiries. You would normally be connecting to the nearest manhole located in the road next to your parents house. Once you have the invert level of that connection point you’ll be able to work out if you can get a normal gravity connection to it or whether you will need to have a pump. Foul pipes are normally 100mm diameter and fall at a gradient of about 1:40 so for a 50m run you will be dropping 1250mm just to get the fall you need on the pipe. Realistically therefore you will need the invert of the adopted sewer at the manhole in the road to be about 2M (or lower) below the level of your floor slab. Edited December 16, 2017 by Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I think @Ian has nailed it, the water company are quoting the public side rules, not those on the private side. Our foul drain crossed over a water supply pipe in the lane for example, and is only 350mm away from it, as there was no other solution, Similarly, further up the lane the water main and foul drain run side by side in the same trench. They are over 750mm deep and separated, one one side of the trench, the other the other side of the trench, but that's all. The 3m easement is an access rule I believe, it just means that on a public pipe they need a 3m wide strip available above the pipes in order to access them when required (basically it's the width needed to get a digger over the pipe, with room to manoeuvre). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 If this rule applied to on the plot, then I would be in trouble. My water and drainage both run along the front of the house but in separate trenches, but they are only about 1 metre apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 To be fair when i called up Anglian (after i got that email) they said they "didnt care" what happened on our side of the wall as that was to do with "Council Building Control" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Ed_MK said: To be fair when i called up Anglian (after i got that email) they said they "didnt care" what happened on our side of the wall as that was to do with "Council Building Control" Wooohhh..!!! Hold on..!!!! @Ed_MK you may be building a public sewer here if you are doing more than one connection 1. are you connecting the parents to the drain at the same time ..? 2 . Where is that connection going to be ...?? If more than one property is connected then you need the 3m easement rule and you have to build to their standard. Some even insist on you using clay pipes still, or the 160mm polypipe civils stuff. For ease for you there is nothing stopping you running a pair of parallel 110mm upvc pipes all the way to the boundary and connecting them in a manhole at the boundary - bit more digging and a bit more pipe but less hassle. Also don’t forget that moving the parents from cesspit to mains drains is notifiable works to the council for building regs for their property and not just yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 The term "cess pit" is being used here, when I'm nearly 100% certain that there cannot be a cess pit. Worth clarifying, as a cess pit needs emptying every 2 to 3 months, as it's just a storage tank. They are pretty rare now, mainly because they are costly to maintain and because modern water usage rates mean they need emptying far more frequently was the case when they were initially used, tens of decades ago. I think it's far more likely that what was being used was a septic tank, a completely different system altogether, and one that allows the effluent to settle, the sludge to anaerobically decompose and the liquid effluent to drain to a leach field where it is supposedly treated by aerobic soil bacteria. A septic tank only needs emptying when the sludge level builds up, perhaps every one or two years or so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, PeterW said: Wooohhh..!!! Hold on..!!!! @Ed_MK you may be building a public sewer here if you are doing more than one connection 1. are you connecting the parents to the drain at the same time ..? 2 . Where is that connection going to be ...?? If more than one property is connected then you need the 3m easement rule and you have to build to their standard. Some even insist on you using clay pipes still, or the 160mm polypipe civils stuff. For ease for you there is nothing stopping you running a pair of parallel 110mm upvc pipes all the way to the boundary and connecting them in a manhole at the boundary - bit more digging and a bit more pipe but less hassle. Also don’t forget that moving the parents from cesspit to mains drains is notifiable works to the council for building regs for their property and not just yours. building a public sewer !??! Oooh no ..i dont think that is what i want 2 pipes it is I didnt realise that i would need to fill out a Building Reg document for them as well ....good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 @Ed_MK also, as your new sewer pipes will be very close to your neighbours boundary and may be deeper than their house foundations you will need a Party Wall agreement with them in place before you start digging https://www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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