Fire Escape Options

[LiamJones]

When doing a loft conversion to a bungalow, Are there any alternative fire escape options, other than windows? Planners want side windows to be 1.7m above FFL, building regs want 0.8-1.1m above FFL for a fire escape window. Curious if i can get round the fire escape window by providing an alternate escape route, like a protected stairway?

 

 

[markc]

1.7 above FFL vertical or up the slope? Protected stair maybe possible but I would think this would have to lead directly to outside, yes you want to ‘get around’ the regs but if there was a fire how would you or family get out?

[nod]

I do protected fire escapes as part of my business You would be fine doing that But there’s quite a bite of work involved creating a box that will give you 90 minutes fire protection 

[markc]

43 minutes ago, nod said:

I do protected fire escapes as part of my business You would be fine doing that But there’s quite a bite of work involved creating a box that will give you 90 minutes fire protection 

Would the box need to lead directly outside or is the reasoning that 90 mins should be sufficient to get the fire out?

[LiamJones]

2 hours ago, markc said:

1.7 above FFL vertical or up the slope? Protected stair maybe possible but I would think this would have to lead directly to outside, yes you want to ‘get around’ the regs but if there was a fire how would you or family get out?

1.7 vertical. I don’t want to get round the regs, I want to comply with the regs and trust them to be sufficient to protect my family. I’m curious as to other less obvious, but still satisfactory ways of achieving fire escape.

 

I spent some time last night having a play, and think a dormer with fire escape windows to the sides of the dormer would get round the planner not liking windows to the side elevation. 
 

51 minutes ago, nod said:

I do protected fire escapes as part of my business You would be fine doing that But there’s quite a bite of work involved creating a box that will give you 90 minutes fire protection 

 

Thanks @nod, is there anywhere in the regs you can link to for this? 

[Mr Punter]

How about a door which is fixed shut and to be used only in emergency, plus a high level window for light and ventilation?

[ETC]

3 hours ago, nod said:

I do protected fire escapes as part of my business You would be fine doing that But there’s quite a bite of work involved creating a box that will give you 90 minutes fire protection 

Why do you need 90 minutes FR in a house?

[ETC]

11 hours ago, LiamJones said:

When doing a loft conversion to a bungalow, Are there any alternative fire escape options, other than windows? Planners want side windows to be 1.7m above FFL, building regs want 0.8-1.1m above FFL for a fire escape window. Curious if i can get round the fire escape window by providing an alternate escape route, like a protected stairway?

 

 

 

[kandgmitchell]

With the planners setting the opening height of your windows at no less than 1.7m you can't satisfy Para 2.1 (b) above. I presume this is to stop occupants peering out, it usually is.

 

Your alternative is to provide a protected stairway (2.1 (b) above. So basically a stairway down into a hallway with a direct final exit. The partitions forming the hall need to be 30 minutes fire resistant and all doors that open into that hall from habitable rooms and kitchens need to be FD20 standard (albeit they're hard to get as more FD30 doors are usually sold). The route must be direct and so the stair can't land in a room (i.e be open plan).

[ETC]

Look at 2.3.

[DevilDamo]

If you cannot provide escape windows to all habitable rooms on the first floor, they should lead to and provide access to a final exit via a protected staircase.

[ETC]

4 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

If you cannot provide escape windows to all habitable rooms on the first floor, they should lead to and provide access to a final exit via a protected staircase.

Or look at 2.3.

[DevilDamo]

Yes but only on the basis the OP can meet the window requirement with the connecting room. Depends how many rooms they have with side elevations. 

[ETC]

3 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

Yes but only on the basis the OP can meet the window requirement with the connecting room. Depends how many rooms they have with side elevations. 

Tomato - tomato.

[LiamJones]

I’m digging this back out. There was a thread on here earlier today about not needing fire escape windows in a bungalow loft conversion, providing all rooms had RF interlinked fire alarms. 
 

the thread has since been deleted and I’m curious about this option, the regs don’t (at least explicitly) document this as an option.

[ETC]

They won’t. 
 

With a roof conversion you will need EEW from each first floor habitable room plus an interlinked SAA no more than 3.0m from each bedroom door.

[LiamJones]

Thanks @ETCthats how I interpreted the regs, but the (now deleted) thread from this morning was suggesting otherwise. I think maybe @joe90 commented? 

[DevilDamo]

21 minutes ago, ETC said:

They won’t. 
 

With a roof conversion you will need EEW from each first floor habitable room plus an interlinked SAA no more than 3.0m from each bedroom door.

Which is one option. 

[joe90]

2 hours ago, LiamJones said:

Thanks @ETCthats how I interpreted the regs, but the (now deleted) thread from this morning was suggesting otherwise. I think maybe @joe90 commented? 

From memory (which is not great) that thread said linked fire alarms were cited as a means of passing regs and I simply agreed that that would be the simplest suggestion.

[Temp]

3 hours ago, LiamJones said:

I’m digging this back out. There was a thread on here earlier today about not needing fire escape windows in a bungalow loft conversion, providing all rooms had RF interlinked fire alarms. 
 

the thread has since been deleted and I’m curious about this option, the regs don’t (at least explicitly) document this as an option.

 

Yes that's because a bungalow loft conversion normally results in a two storey house where as most loft conversions result in a three story house.

 

So the rules for a bungalow loft conversion are similar to that of a two storey house without loft conversion. They typically only requires interlinked alarms.

 

It's actually the height that matters not the number of floors but the effect is the same.

[LiamJones]

19 minutes ago, Temp said:

So the rules for a bungalow loft conversion are similar to that of a two storey house without loft conversion. They typically only requires interlinked alarms.

So a 2 storey house can meet regs with ONLY interlinked alarms, no fire escape windows or protected escape routes?

[DevilDamo]

@LiamJones No. The requirements are covered within ADB.

[mickeych]

This is a tough one which we are also trying to solve for...

 

We have a problem with the fire escape issue in our barn conversion which we are trying to get to building regs and we realise that we have a 1st floor bedroom with only roof lights and slit windows that has no escape route (Bed 2 on the plan).

There is an option to open up into the void over the kitchen breakfast room (building to the left on the plan), but this opens up so many issues around design and I'm trying to find a solution to this from within the main barn space.

One thought we have had is create a short feature staircase in bedroom 2 below the planned skylight which we use as the escape window, but this raises questions around height from the ground outside (bottom of skylight would be at 4.4-4.6M) and also the eligibility of a small landing (say 60x60cm) at the top of the stairs as a 'floor' to access the skylight.

 

Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome. Many thanks

 

NB The barn is listed so cutting holes in external walls is not an easy sell to the conservation and planning teams!

 

 

1st floor with revisions ch copy2.pdf

[ProDave]

50 minutes ago, mickeych said:

NB The barn is listed so cutting holes in external walls is not an easy sell to the conservation and planning teams!

I would at least try to get permission for another gable end window like the one in the master bedroom.  Tell them it ia a building regulations requirement.  If they say no,take it to appeal on the same grounds.

[mickeych]

Unfortunately the kitchen breakfast structure abuts the gable end of the main barn where bed 2 is. If we put in a gable end wind/door, we would have to create a fire void above the kitchen breakfast room (in place of a vaulted ceiling) and then place a fire escape compliant rooflight in the fire void above the Kitchen breakfast room.