Sophiae Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 Anyone heard of these? Any idea how much they cost? Their environmental impact? How they may affect the residents health long term? please help :0) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 It’s the most expensive insulation out there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmj1 Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 35 minutes ago, Sophiae said: Anyone heard of these? Any idea how much they cost? Their environmental impact? How they may affect the residents health long term? please help :0) Can you provide more information on the problem you are trying to solve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 Yes, sometimes used for niche applications such as window reveals, where thickness available is limited. I may well use a small quantity in that application myself in a few months time. Likely to be too expensive to use more generally, unless you are in a high-value city-centre apartment where every mm² has an equally high value. They're non-toxic - at least the normal silica based ones are - but the you don't want to be inhaling the dust while installing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 Some aerogel blankets have a thermal conductivity that isn't much better than PIR. For example one make quotes 0.024 W/mK which is the same as PIR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 23, 2023 Author Share Posted June 23, 2023 Thank you all for replying. I was reading (sigh) as I sometimes get lost in the WWW from one place to another, using the excuse to educate myself about different things (was initially looking for a diagram for my B-Regs about external cavity wall make up with block-block leaves) and somehow ended there. I was impressed and yes understood that A. It is 3 times as expensive as PIR but uses a fraction of the space (tempting but not in my 1st project, waiting to get £££££££££ from the lottery 😜). B. It may not be very easy to work with in certain areas. I, like @Archer was wondering if we could source them directly from China, thinking of the great Brexit deals that allowed us open channels with China. I found plenty of sources for a fraction of the price, but the question is would it be possible, and what would it cost to bring them in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmj1 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 6 hours ago, Temp said: Some aerogel blankets have a thermal conductivity that isn't much better than PIR. For example one make quotes 0.024 W/mK which is the same as PIR. Exactly. The other key point of aerogel is that it is vapour permeable, making it suitable for retrofit in older buildings. Having looked at aerogel for wall looking, we're now making use of an insulated plasterboard with just 17mm of PIR bonded to 9.5mm of plasterboard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Mike said: They're non-toxic - at least the normal silica based ones are - but the you don't want to be inhaling the dust while installing it. Yes. It is the particles that are the problem, though at the nano metre scale, odd physics occurs between other chemicals. We used an aerogel based filler, which is similar to that used in the blanket type insulation (which I think is what @DamonHD had fitted), physically the properties are different to the solid form of aerogel, which is the one with the fantastic thermal properties. This Is not this Edited June 23, 2023 by SteamyTea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 What about termorasante aerogel as a second best alternative to the sheets/blankets? I am really interested in something for the existing walls that would come close to what I plan to achieve with the planned extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 23/06/2023 at 00:53, Temp said: Some aerogel blankets have a thermal conductivity that isn't much better than PIR. For example one make quotes 0.024 W/mK which is the same as PIR. Where can I find exact details of U-value in relation to the thickness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmj1 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Sophiae said: What about termorasante aerogel as a second best alternative to the sheets/blankets? I am really interested in something for the existing walls that would come close to what I plan to achieve with the planned extension. I looked at this product myself but couldn't find third party verification/certification of the claimed conductivity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, bmj1 said: 5 hours ago, Sophiae said: What about termorasante aerogel as a second best alternative to the sheets/blankets? I am really interested in something for the existing walls that would come close to what I plan to achieve with the planned extension. I looked at this product myself but couldn't find third party verification/certification of the claimed conductivity. At 10mm thickness, it has a U-Value of 0.32 W.m-2.K-1 You can buy a bag of Aerosil and make your own. https://www.silmid.com/specialties/fillers-thickeners/Aerosil-300-Hydrophilic-Fumed-Silica-Flour-10Kg-Bag/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Sophiae said: Where can I find exact details of U-value in relation to the thickness? Very approximately... The thermal conductivity of a material is the U-Value of a 1 meter thick layer of the insulation. So you can work out the U-Value of any thickness using.. U Value = Thermal Conductivity * 1000 / Thickness (in mm) Manufactures data sheets give more accurate data because they take into account surface effects such as that due to foil covering on PIR. In some cases manufacturers include the effect of air gaps one or both sides specified in the installation instructions! Edited June 25, 2023 by Temp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 5 hours ago, SteamyTea said: At 10mm thickness, it has a U-Value of 0.32 W.m-2.K-1 You can buy a bag of Aerosil and make your own. https://www.silmid.com/specialties/fillers-thickeners/Aerosil-300-Hydrophilic-Fumed-Silica-Flour-10Kg-Bag/ So in all true facts we need to at least triple that to get the desired U-value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 31 minutes ago, Temp said: Very approximately... The thermal conductivity of a material is the U-Value of a 1 meter thick layer of the insulation. So you can work out the U-Value of any thickness using.. U Value = Thermal Conductivity * 1000 / Thickness (in mm) Manufactures data sheets give more accurate data because they take into account surface effects such as that due to foil covering on PIR. In some cases manufacturers include the effect of air gaps one or both sides specified in the installation instructions I was hoping for a simpler reply as it’s a bit too technical for me, but I will dig deeper. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 5 hours ago, SteamyTea said: At 10mm thickness, it has a U-Value of 0.32 W.m-2.K-1 You can buy a bag of Aerosil and make your own. https://www.silmid.com/specialties/fillers-thickeners/Aerosil-300-Hydrophilic-Fumed-Silica-Flour-10Kg-Bag/ Can I just mix this with the intended building render cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 26 minutes ago, Sophiae said: So in all true facts we need to at least triple that to get the desired U-value? Depends what you are trying to achieve. You can vary U-Values a bit, as long as the overall value meets building regs. But if you have a specific problem like condensation, then you may need a better value than BR stated. You also have fire ratings to worry about. Steel does not fair well in a fire. 25 minutes ago, Sophiae said: Can I just mix this with the intended building render cover? You can, but it will cost a fortune to get it certified, so not worth doing. It does give an hour indication of how much normal plaster can be ramped up by adding the word 'nano' in the brochures. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 51 minutes ago, Sophiae said: I was hoping for a simpler reply as it’s a bit too technical for me, but I will dig deeper. Ah ok. In that case many manufacturers have u-value calculators. You enter details of the wall construction and thickness of insulation and it works out a u-value for the whole wall as that's what matters for building regs... Kingspan.. https://u-valuecalculator.com/gb Celotex... https://insulation-uk.com/technical-services/tools/online-u-value-calculator This one might include aerogel blanket but I haven't tried it.. https://www.proctorgroup.com/u-value-calculator If you have a particular wall make up in mind post the details and I'm sure one of us can run the numbers for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Temp said: Ah ok. In that case many manufacturers have u-value calculators. You enter details of the wall construction and thickness of insulation and it works out a u-value for the whole wall as that's what matters for building regs... Kingspan.. https://u-valuecalculator.com/gb Celotex... https://insulation-uk.com/technical-services/tools/online-u-value-calculator This one might include aerogel blanket but I haven't tried it.. https://www.proctorgroup.com/u-value-calculator If you have a particular wall make up in mind post the details and I'm sure one of us can run the numbers for you. Detached bungalow built between 1965-1972. The existing cavity walls (280mm) was reinforced by 25mm Celotex on the internal leaf then plaster boarded. I don’t believe this will make a dent in the over all insulation requirement to keep the original build warm, and not lose the heat from the warm proposed extension. So I was thinking what else can I make or substitute to those walls that won’t take up much more space and cost a fortune? the external leaf is made of bricks, so not going to be able to change anything to that. Edited June 25, 2023 by Sophiae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 6 hours ago, Sophiae said: The existing cavity walls (280mm) was reinforced by 25mm Celotex on the internal leaf then plaster boarded. I don’t believe this will make a dent in the over all insulation requirement to keep the original build warm, A typical cavity wall with no insulation has a u-value of about 1.5 W/m^2k. With 25mm of PIR insulation on the inside that improves to about 0.57 W/m^2k which isn't great but it's still a significant improvement if its your only option. I calculated 50mm instead of 25 mm would improve it to about 0.35 W/m^2k. Earlier you mentioned the walls were block-cavity-block? So presumably the outside is rendered? If the render is in good condition that reduces the risk associated with injected cavity wall insulation (water bridging the cavity). I think that would get you to about 0.25 W/m^2k perhaps a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 54 minutes ago, Temp said: A typical cavity wall with no insulation has a u-value of about 1.5 W/m^2k. With 25mm of PIR insulation on the inside that improves to about 0.57 W/m^2k which isn't great but it's still a significant improvement if its your only option. I calculated 50mm instead of 25 mm would improve it to about 0.35 W/m^2k. Earlier you mentioned the walls were block-cavity-block? So presumably the outside is rendered? If the render is in good condition that reduces the risk associated with injected cavity wall insulation (water bridging the cavity). I think that would get you to about 0.25 W/m^2k perhaps a bit better. Thank you @Temp. The original walls are bricks on the outside, blocks inside so no render. The proposed walls would be made of blocks both leaves, but this may very well change tonight as I am having problems with my left hand side neighbours not allowing the builders to render that wall, which leaves me in no choice but to construct the outer leaf with bricks instead to avoid further conflicts. I’ve tried for the last few months and the lady doesn’t like the idea of render, and so she promised not to allow builders to go over and render when it is all ready. No party wall in place (another situation from last year). I already put a post on for that. The problem now is that all internal walls have been boarded up (plasterboards) with only that 25mm in situ, hence why I am looking for alternative solutions, rather than ripping out all these plasterboards and insulation 😞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 I suppose, I can pay for the cavities to be filled with beads once the whole project is finished, along with the 25mm of PIR, it would have a positive effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 If you neighbours aren’t letting you access to render how do you plan to build even with brick? you still need to access the wall to build it, guttering, downpipes. Isn’t there a distance from a boundary? mu council insisted on a 1m gap between the boundary for maintenance purposes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophiae Posted June 26, 2023 Author Share Posted June 26, 2023 1 hour ago, TonyT said: If you neighbours aren’t letting you access to render how do you plan to build even with brick? you still need to access the wall to build it, guttering, downpipes. Isn’t there a distance from a boundary? mu council insisted on a 1m gap between the boundary for maintenance purposes Hmmmm. That’s a good question. The plan is to build from outwards in on that left hand side wall. The BCO didn’t have problems with it being at the boundary line. He knows the problems with the neighbours. He didn’t say anything else. As for the guttering and down pipes, it’s for the builders to figure it out I suppose. So long that it doesn’t cross the party wall line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 It would be better to design out. The problems now, rather than the builder just make an arse of it/and charge loads more money for probably a job that will give you further grief, you already have had poor experiences so designing out problems and having proper working drawings that you can actually build will save you grief and money later… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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