ICF How much more expensive ?

[saveasteading]

?

13 hours ago, Nick Laslett said:

Here is the generic Kore construction detail,

 

What is the purpose of the radon barrier outside the building?

 

[Nick Laslett]

13 hours ago, saveasteading said:

?

 

What is the purpose of the radon barrier outside the building?

 

My understanding is that radon barrier is a typical requirement in Ireland, and because Tanner and Kore are both Irish based, it is a standard detail that they include. 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Nick Laslett said:

My understanding is that radon barrier is a typical requirement in Ireland, and because Tanner and Kore are both Irish based, it is a standard detail that they include. 

Yup. They do it as a knee-jerk iirc. 

[Nickfromwales]

14 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

I don't agree with the DPM between the top of the slab and the wall, may as well just slather some butter on there as the bond will be the same

This type of separation has been commonplace since the concept of a DPC/M came about. 
 

A nonsense statement afaic. 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Nick Laslett said:

, it is a standard detail

It isn't terribly expensive and  removes a a real danger.  But outside the building?

[Gus Potter]

On 09/05/2023 at 14:59, saveasteading said:

I have used every method of my table apart from ICF, which I tried to make work on a few projects. But that was as a professional.

Hi all.

 

As an SE..  ICF is just temporary formwork replaced by permenant insulation. There is nothing here (for me) that is complex / more difficult in terms of structural design. The concrete wall does not know if you have fitted the insulation before or after!

 

You have Kore etc but the real money lies in local contractor cost. All ICF walls are fundamentally the same.. yes the method of tying the outer and inner leaves of insulation may differ as does how the ICF system locks together but in the grand scheme of things it's a moot point.

 

Often what matters is where you are in the country and access to builders that are familiar with how you shutter and support the different ICF systems. It's just not economic for a Contractor to do the odd ICF job in parts of the country as you need to invest in kit that can be used more than once.

 

This is a major issue when selecting the best and most cost effective method of construction. 

 

Often to get best bang for your buck you need to look at contractor availability.

 

In some ways it is a post code lottery in terms of build cost. As a designer and advisor I have to let you know how your location can dramaticaly influence the build cost.

 

I'm going to pick out @Nickfromwales here as he is a go ahead guy with decades of experience behind him. I've mentioned Nick here as he has spent a lot of time demonstrating on BH that he knows his stuff.

 

If Nick can see enough of a turn and repeat business then the ICF cost will come down.. Nick is from Wales... maybe not London prices but enough for him to make a good living?

 

 

 

 

[Conor]

100% agree with @Gus Potter

 

When we settled for ICF, the first thing I did after learning the basics of ICF, was scope out contractors. There were basically four guys in the entire country that did icf at the time. One was discounted due to not so great reputation. Other was just too busy. So was down to two. System didn't matter, as Gus says it's just formwork to hold the business end of things together. Drawings based on generic ICF and requirement in the contract to meet the required U values, so was easy to send out and get prices. 

 

Building again, first thing I'd do is look at what is done locally, and take it from there. Personally, I wouldn't use ICF again, primarily because of the huge embedded carbon figures, I'd be going timber frame, cellulose insulation, with brick outer skin.

[Nickfromwales]

My go to ICF (and raft) installer bought his own props / staging etc as, as said, the costs are then reduced if you can buy these and just absorb the purchase cost over the volume of work they’ll lend themselves to.

 

If you have that ethos then you can reduce your costs and the impact of hire etc to the client, making you more attractive / cost-effective. 
 

It also tells someone that this chap is so busy he has been able to warrant purchasing this stuff outright, and busy often means you’re good / reputable. Not always, before antibody says it, but the cost of moving and storing that stuff between projects defo makes it extremely uneconomical to own. 

 

Also, either not, or just minimally, advertising, speaks volumes (where both he and I are so busy we don’t really need to). Another big overhead that doesn’t need to be input in your overheads / profit / pricing to the client 👌

[ToughButterCup]

On 28/03/2025 at 22:14, Nickfromwales said:

Yup. They do it as a knee-jerk iirc. 

 

That was not the case for us. 

[Gus Potter]

On 30/03/2025 at 07:29, Conor said:

100% agree with

I'll take that as a feather in my cap if you don't mind?

[Gus Potter]

On 30/03/2025 at 14:21, Nickfromwales said:

My go to ICF (and raft) installer bought his own props / staging etc as, as said, the costs are then reduced if you can buy these and just absorb the purchase cost over the volume of work they’ll lend themselves to.

 

If you have that ethos then you can reduce your costs and the impact of hire etc to the client, making you more attractive / cost-effective. 
 

It also tells someone that this chap is so busy he has been able to warrant purchasing this stuff outright, and busy often means you’re good / reputable. Not always, before antibody says it, but the cost of moving and storing that stuff between projects defo makes it extremely uneconomical to own. 

 

Also, either not, or just minimally, advertising, speaks volumes (where both he and I are so busy we don’t really need to). Another big overhead that doesn’t need to be input in your overheads / profit / pricing to the client 👌

For me,  in my last life, as a local building contractor I learnt to have a look at who was making the most profit. Business is a learning curve. You get subbies in.. say ICF.. tie them into a contract, learn and if it looks profitable then cut them out. There are no friends in the desert. Profit is sanity, turnover vanity.. especially if you are carrying risk for someone else's turnover that is leveriging that... you can end up being a useful idiot. Not just in the way that the finances work but as soon as they get enough well completed jobs they will ditch the local guy. The pressure to do this will come from above.. the folk that are making the ICF insulation.

 

Now a case in point. Advanced Foudation Technology have got accreditation for their own product. This requires a serious amount of investment. I know about this kind of stuff as I've been involved in developing cold formed steel buildings and the raft foundations they sit on, be these insulated or not. I'll leave it at that for now other than to say I may have been into this for a long time... and spent a lot of time learning about what is cost effective or not.. I've made a few mistakes but that comes with the innovative process.

 

The building trade is brutal. I work for contractors as an SE at times, we trade blows. Sometimes they say to me.. hey Gus I can get an SE for a few hundered less.  I say go on then, give them a go on a few jobs.. I'll not get offended.. too old for that. Sometimes they come back..once they realise that others designs are not buildable.. but the ones that don't are probably cutting corners and being unsafe. Yes they will get away with it for a time but God or the tax man will catch up with them.

 

For all I've touched on this before.. insulated rafts are not new. ICF is just permenant insulated shutering. I have serious doubts about the economics of this as there are just not enough contractors about to make it a competetive market. By all means if you want to go ICF, have the funds and it floats you boat then go for it.

 

As a designer / SE advising a young couple with a few beans to rub together then I would look at other options rather than ICF, even if to rule them out. There are folk doing ICF in the North of Scotland.. great until you have an on site issue not least! These type of folk tend to have a large contingency fund.. but if you are a nurse on an average wage it's bollocks.

 

But see in terms of getting paid as a contractor and on time .. the nurse is probably your best bet provided you do what you say you are going to do as as a contractor. If you are a building contractor reading this then don't feel unconfortable about making a profit.

 

Many people work for the NHS like my wife. . some of the contractor profit allows them to go on holiday.. in the public service this comes with the job. But for all.. see when your builder is off on holiday they still need to keep the wheels running..

 

 

[FM2015]

As someone who has built my own house from start to finish, AND work for an ICF contractor I can safely say that there are very few self builders who become repeat business.  I'll never build another house for myself, I've got one!

 

Overheads do obviously contribute to the cost of service, whether that be advertising, equipment, office staff (🤫) or profit(🤫🤫) but a significant factor is also the uniqueness of every job.  Architect's first time, owner's blue sky thinking and the idyll is generally not just off a trunk road with ample parking.

 

Cost is therefore reduced by simplification and duplication and adoption of ICF for these sort of projects is critical for bringing product costs down for individual consumers.

 

As a contractor, approaching developers comes with it's own set of overheads; h&s being a massive one and the corner most likely cut by a self builder.  Not to be dangerous but there is no commercial risk attached to not having a risk assessment or all the other paperwork.  And that costs.  

 

Therefore a reputable ICF contractor aspiring to deliver commercial multi unit projects is always going to be more expensive than someone with little experience or not concerned about working for the larger clients.

 

The irony is that plenty of developers see ICF as a self build product and not a serious mass build option.  Compounded by a potential labour force made up for first or part time ICF contractors.

 

Until large scale opportunities exist nationally, offering repeat business, this isn't going to change.  Chicken or the egg?

 

There's a massive difference between too expensive and unaffordable and if a contractor quote comes back as high, it's important to acknowledge why; too expensive or just unaffordable, all risks covered? There is a reason why nearly 30% of the new housing stock in Ireland is ICF.  It is because once economies of scale are reached, cost ceases to be the prominent factor.  

 

And anyone quoting embodied carbon stats as a reason not to use ICF needs to give their head a wobble.  

 

Rant over 

[SteamyTea]

33 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

Rant over

We need a dedicated rant section, similar to Boffin's Corner.

 

Then let our level headed @Pocster be the moderator for it.

[ToughButterCup]

On 17/04/2025 at 18:07, FM2015 said:

...

Rant over 

 

That folks, that's no rant.

 

From an ICF builder (as in DIY MAX)

 

On 17/04/2025 at 18:07, FM2015 said:

...  there are very few self builders who become repeat business.

.... adoption of ICF for these sort of projects is critical for bringing product costs down for individual consumers.

...  plenty of developers see ICF as a self build product and not a serious mass build option.  Compounded by a potential labour force made up for first or part time ICF contractors.

... Until large scale opportunities exist nationally, offering repeat business, this isn't going to change.

... There's a massive difference between too expensive and unaffordable  

 

All of that is plain simple truth. No rant.