Rethinking the mindset for mass retrofit - a provocative idea

[markocosic]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

same problem I had in a work (community centre) scenario, one group whacks the thermostat up to 30C, the next group, a couple of hours later, turns it down to 10

 

Weather compensate the space heating flow temperature and put locking pins in every TRV to range limit it to 18-22C. Works a treat.

[JamesPa]

7 minutes ago, markocosic said:

Tado?

 

Does Tado control flow temp of ASHPs, or is on/off only.  if the latter surely not the solution.

[JamesPa]

1 minute ago, markocosic said:

 

Weather compensate the space heating flow temperature and put locking pins in every TRV to range limit it to 18-22C. Works a treat.

Nope.  The problem is one group is sedentary, the other group is active, and neither understand rate of change.  They will just complain.  Better I fear to have placebo controls!

[markocosic]

9 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

  I, personally, want to put in a heat pump, but the industry and the regulation wont let me unless I do it all myself.

 

Yes it does.

 

Grab the nearest pipe wrangler and tell them where you want the kit siting and the pipes joining. 

 

Pay their day rate. Buy the bits.

 

You just don't get the £5k subsidy for buying from a union fitter and having it installed the union way.

 

The REAL PROBLEM you actually have is that demand is through the roof (great) vs the number of pipe wranglers that have trained themselves up.

 

More are training themselves up. The ones you want might not be though as there's no sense in them adding the union costs onto their business/onto each job.

 

Ask your MP to fund an alternative to the MCS "union" just as the idiots subsidised the expansion of the MCS back in the day?

[Rob99]

18 hours ago, ProDave said:

Having built and now living in a near passive standard house, heated by a small ASHP with low heating bills, this is what we should be aiming for already for every single new build, not just a few geeks that choose to do so, but still we are not demanding that of the mass market house builders.  If we can't even get all new houses built NOW built properly m what hope is there ever to get all the old poor houses upgraded?

For me, this is one of the biggest issues and sadly indicative of the big developer lobbying that must go on with government/planners etc.

 

There are a lot of new build housing sites in my part of the south east and driving past several over the past year, without exception every single house has a gas boiler and no solar panels. Clearly developers won't add them as it adds to their cost model and few people would be prepared to pay the premium for heat pumps and solar. Planning and building regs should compel every new home to be fitted with a heat pump and the roof covered in PV. It's unfair to expect existing homeowners to pay for an overpriced MCS heat pump installation whilst developers get away with it. Retrofitting heat pumps should NOT require planning permission and if permitted development it should NOT require to be an MCS installation.

 

Whilst on the subject of developers, I also understand that some water companies are now paying developers up to £1,000 per house to "encourage" them to fit low water usage taps and showers. It won't cost developers any more to install them so why aren't they being compelled to fit them anyway. I don't want my water bill charges to be used to subsidise developers costs so they can make even more profit.

 

 

[markocosic]

4 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Nope.  The problem is one group is sedentary, the other group is active, and neither understand rate of change.  They will just complain.  Better I fear to have placebo controls!

 

So what does range need to be? 17 and 23C? I wasn't suggesting fixing the temperature. Just limit the extremes and limit how quickly you can raise it for the 30V crowd or limit how far you can crater it for the 10C crowd. Semi pseudo choice. 80 benefit for 20 restrictions.

[JamesPa]

1 minute ago, markocosic said:

but the industry and the regulation wont let me unless I do it all myself.

 

 

Yes it does.

 

Grab the nearest pipe wrangler and tell them where you want the kit siting and the pipes joining. 

 

Pay their day rate. Buy the bits.

 

You just don't get the £5k subsidy for buying from a union fitter and having it installed the union way.

 

 

Not really

 

Needs express planning consent because its not permitted development unless done by an MCS installer to an MCS design.  LPA want me to be 10dB below ambient, ambient is so quiet you cannot hear it inside (thus LPA requirement stupid), 10dB below ambient unachievable.

 

[SteamyTea]

22 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Better I fear to have placebo controls!

Is that similar to @pocster's imaginary hot girlfriend?

Edited April 23, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Pocster]

16 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Is that similar to @pocster's imaginary hot girlfriend?

If I can imagine it ; it’s real 

[JamesPa]

46 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

So what does range need to be? 17 and 23C? I wasn't suggesting fixing the temperature. Just limit the extremes and limit how quickly you can raise it for the 30V crowd or limit how far you can crater it for the 10C crowd. Semi pseudo choice. 80 benefit for 20 restrictions.

That would work, provided that they couldn't tell that their choice was being limited.  So it needs a thermostat control where the dial can be varied over the full range but which doesn't actually affect the control point over that full range.  A sort of pseudo placebo!

 

 

1 hour ago, markocosic said:

Apply the same "MCS accredited garbage" installation quality ...

 

... which over 10-20 years quickly pays for some upgrades to make it work at a lower temp hence it not being popular

 

You might have missed my very serious question.  If 'MCS accredited' is 'garbage', whats the solution?  My personal view is that I'd rather trust a local tradesman who values their reputation to do the right thing and put it right if they don't than some 'MCS accredited garbage' (your words!) company formed for the purpose of hoovering up government grants.  But currently these guys are effectively excluded from the market and I don't have the option, unless I go through extraordinary hoops, for the reason set out upthread. 

 

Just another comment about 'which over 10-20 years quickly pays for some upgrades to make it work at a lower temp hence it not being popular'.  Quite likely true, but cash flow matters and many simply do not have the capital funds available and may prefer a higher running cost in return for a lower capital cost, or to stage the process.  Currently they are denied that choice.

Edited April 23, 2023 by JamesPa

[ProDave]

45 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

There are a lot of new build housing sites in my part of the south east and driving past several over the past year, without exception every single house has a gas boiler and no solar panels. Clearly developers won't add them as it adds to their cost model and few people would be prepared to pay the premium for heat pumps and solar. Planning and building regs should compel every new home to be fitted with a heat pump and the roof covered in PV.

I was recently at a 2 year old "new" build by one of the bigger developers here.  The owner was preparing it to sell up and move on.

 

She bought it as a new house expecting it to be well insulated and cheap to run.  It managed an EPC of B something.

 

The reality was it was heated with an electric boiler driving radiators running on peak rate electricity, her heating bills far exceeded her expectations (and of course would be 3 times as much as if they had fitted an ASHP).  It had 2, yes 2 PV panels and a 1kW inverter, no doubt only fitted to get the few extra SAP points to scrape through.

[markocosic]

49 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Needs express planning consent because its not permitted development unless done by an MCS installer to an MCS design.

 

Ok.

 

Noise.

 

You're wanting to ask Hitler express permission rather than doing it to the required technical specifications and risking enforcement action for the lack of an appropriate letterhead.

 

That's hardly an *industry* problem.

 

That's a problem with the Hitler department within your local government.

 

Industry would be glad to be rid of such barriers.

 

I've never been bothered myself; but neighbours are decent people and treat planners with similar contempt following previous butted heads.

 

I'm not seeing any realistic enforcement on noise either. If the tech spec complies Hitler would have his little neck wound in by his superiors for going after what's demonstrably a non issue for enforcement.

[markocosic]

9 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

If 'MCS accredited' is 'garbage', whats the solution

 

- Pay a premium for an assurance scheme on top of the MCS such as heat geek etc (if they'll take on a difficult job and or client whilst easy ones are available)

 

- Go for a manufacturer backed umbrella scheme (where a non MCS installer works under e.g. the Viewsmann umbrella and Viessmans design guidance/warrant and MCS certification) but again expect this to only be available with expensive kit and for easy jobs such is demand 

 

- Pay somebody you trust what they could be making on another installation (£1k a day next / £2k a day gross for time on site)

 

- Become that professional you can trust and job out the plumbing.

 

- Roll the dice with an Octopus etc and hope they dub out the installation to somebody competent 

 

 

- Wait for more folks to be trained, supply to better match demand, and margins for the above to drop

 

Supply and demand problem. This will not be available for £0.20 in the UK.

[JamesPa]

4 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

Ok.

 

Noise.

 

You're wanting to ask Hitler express permission rather than doing it to the required technical specifications and risking enforcement action for the lack of an appropriate letterhead.

 

That's hardly an *industry* problem.

 

That's a problem with the Hitler department within your local government.

 

Industry would be glad to be rid of such barriers.

 

I've never been bothered myself; but neighbours are decent people and treat planners with similar contempt following previous butted heads.

 

I'm not seeing any realistic enforcement on noise either. If the tech spec complies Hitler would have his little neck wound in by his superiors for going after what's demonstrably a non issue for enforcement.

Not at all.  Id like to do it legally to the correct noise spec but not have to bother with the 'MCS accredited garbage' (your words!).  

 

The PD issue is in part an industry problem.  The legislation says that an ASHP is PD if it 'complies with MCS Planning standards'.  Its MCS (ie the industry, or at least a part of it) that has defined 'MCS Planning Standards' as the noise standard plus the requirement for it to be installed and designed by an MCS registered contractor.  So the industry is not innocent here, albeit that the Government remains culpable.

[markocosic]

15 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

That would work, provided that they couldn't tell that their choice was being limited.

 

Not with range limited TRVs.

 

It would be obvious that the range was limited and management would have to grow enough of a spine that they're prepared to have that conflict.

 

If you have tha authority to limit choice you surely also have the authority to call folks out on being ridiculous; explain how you're preventing their behaviour from bankrupting the service; and outline how they're going to need to behave going forward.

 

If you've not got the authority to make these decisions for them then you shouldn't be messing with the controls.

[Rob99]

59 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Needs express planning consent because its not permitted development unless done by an MCS installer to an MCS design.  LPA want me to be 10dB below ambient, ambient is so quiet you cannot hear it inside (thus LPA requirement stupid), 10dB below ambient unachievable.

Another classic case of inconsistent rules misapplied by jobsworth planning departments. As far as I understand it, MCS installations under permitted development don't have the 10dB below ambient requirement and don't have to prove noise levels with a noise survey or anything.

 

They really are making it impossible for well intentioned people to do the right thing.

[markocosic]

3 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Its MCS (ie the industry, or at least a part of it

 

Industry is not homogeneous.

 

MCS is government.

 

The government promoted MCS so that they could claim that there's a compliance scheme and that all heat from heat pumps could be considered renewable in the eyes of the EU.

 

MCS only has teeth because the government allow it.

 

The moment it isn't the government endorsed union it dies on its feet.

 

Industry hates it.

 

Only MCS likes MCS. Or MCS.and Octopus et al who are large enough for the overhead to be small and value it keeping competition out.

 

They're not the industry though.

[SteamyTea]

This MCS thing is quite interesting.

I once worked for an MCS company. As far as I know, no one employed by the company had any relevant qualifications. Qualified electricians and plumbers were employed for any relevant work, same with scaffolding.

Now I know there is now some training/prove of work to be done to get the MCS.

So what is to stop a company just getting MCS registered and subbing out the actual work?

[markocosic]

19 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

So what is to stop a company just getting MCS registered and subbing out the actual work?

 

Nothing whatsoever. 

 

Why don't they want do?

 

Risk of audit etc.

 

So they setup, get ticketed using something like https://www.easy-mcs.com/, do a bunch of work, then crash and burn and phoenix from the ashes again.

[Rob99]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

This MCS thing is quite interesting.

I once worked for an MCS company. As far as I know, no one employed by the company had any relevant qualifications. Qualified electricians and plumbers were employed for any relevant work, same with scaffolding.

Now I know there is now some training/prove of work to be done to get the MCS.

So what is to stop a company just getting MCS registered and subbing out the actual work?

42 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

Nothing whatsoever. 

 

Why don't they want do?

 

Risk of audit etc.

 

So they setup, get ticketed using something like https://www.easy-mcs.com/, do a bunch of work, then crash and burn and phoenix from the ashes again.

 

So, any business could become MCS certified by sub-contracting the various elements (electrical/heating) to competent electricians and heating installers). No wonder there are so many out there now.

 

Does make me wonder now though...........!!!

[ProDave]

This is nothing new.  Electricians are the same.  A large company only needs 1 person registered with a competent persons scheme to sign off the work, the people actually doing it could be a trained monkey.

 

Does the same apply to gas safe or does every individual fitter need to be registered?

[Rob99]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Does the same apply to gas safe or does every individual fitter need to be registered?

It's different with gas. Every gas fitter has to have an individual registration with gas safe.

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, Rob99 said:

It's different with gas. Every gas fitter has to have an individual registration with gas safe.

Glad to hear that, thanks.

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

ASHP is PD if it 'complies with MCS Planning standards

But PD also states it can be an equivalent standard. 

 

There is absolutely nothing stopping you or I, writing a standard that is almost word for word the same as MCS, but without the wording stating MCS registered etc.

[JoeBano]

17 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

It's different with gas. Every gas fitter has to have an individual registration with gas safe.

My friend works on new builds sites and his uncle signs the gas safe certificate…