Octopus ASHP Quotation info

[lakelandfolk]

Pre installation.pdfRadiator Scedule - address.pdfOctopus ASHP quote.docx                                                                                                                                                                First of all let me apologise, my computer tech skills are somewhat lacking.  The full quotation is about 25 pages but I have tried to list only those with technical and financial information that might be of interest. My lack of computer skills means some pages are in word and some have been scanned. I hope you are able to view them, if you want more info just ask.

In an earlier post I mentioned that I wanted to keep the existing OSO 210L direct electric heated UVC and Solar I Boost, which is only 9 months old and performs really well.  Octopus say no, we need to supply and install a new cylinder.  I also feel that some of the radiator upgrades will provide very little additional heat but add a sizeable chunk to the costs. I am minded at this stage to take the heating calculations to a local installer who might be prepared to supply/install an ASHP heating system without the DHW cylinder.

[JamesPa]

22 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

Pre installation.pdfRadiator Scedule - address.pdfOctopus ASHP quote.docx                                                                                                                                                                First of all let me apologise, my computer tech skills are somewhat lacking.  The full quotation is about 25 pages but I have tried to list only those with technical and financial information that might be of interest. My lack of computer skills means some pages are in word and some have been scanned. I hope you are able to view them, if you want more info just ask.

In an earlier post I mentioned that I wanted to keep the existing OSO 210L direct electric heated UVC and Solar I Boost, which is only 9 months old and performs really well.  Octopus say no, we need to supply and install a new cylinder.  I also feel that some of the radiator upgrades will provide very little additional heat but add a sizeable chunk to the costs. I am minded at this stage to take the heating calculations to a local installer who might be prepared to supply/install an ASHP heating system without the DHW cylinder

Just over 5k after grant including some radiator upgrades and dhw - if I could get that price in Hertfordshire I'd be over the moon.  More like 10-15k after grant here from the MCS installers.  Unfortunately octopus won't put an ashp on my flat roof.

[billt]

In the radiator sheet I see that they've given the output of the existing radiators in the hall and kitchen as 0. If they put that in their calculations the programme will say that they need to be upgraded. If you can find the iutput of the designer radiators you may find that they are already adequate. According to their figure the Bathroom towel rail does need to be upgrded, but the difference is small and if you are prepared to accept a slightly cooler bathroom you could stick with the existing towel rail. However, I suspect that they will insist on changing it.

 

My radiator upgrades are going to cost about £5,000, £620 looks cheap!

 

I think that the BUS insists that hot water is supplied from the ASHP which would be why they want to replace an electrically heated cylinder.

[Dave Jones]

how to these cowboys get away with charging £5k for a couple days work.

 

total rip off supported by a rigged cartel.

[sharpener]

 

Octopus claim to offer a 7kW "standard installation" for £3k after the BUS grant, worth asking why it is so much more.

 

Apart from the £620 for new rads and an 8kW HP vs 7kW it's not clear what costs the extra £2400. "9 days of engineer time" would surely cover installing the rads as well.

 

Some more information on their pricing from the Octopus web site:

 

"A standard installation includes everything you'd need for a typical 3 bedroom home:

• Expert no obligation consultation & home survey,
• A heat pump (up to 7kW) from a leading brand, on a ground level external wall
• A hot water cylinder (Up to 200L) in the place of your existing one
• Copper pipe (Up to 12m) and electrical cabling (up to 15m) connected to your existing plumbing and fusebox
• Up to 9 days of engineer time to install your system
• System flush, chemicals and magnetic filter to keep your system running smoothly
• 5 year warranty on parts and labour

Every home is unique though so that is why a survey is essential to assess yours.I

 

We’ve been working hard to optimise our processes and supply chain to bring heat pumps to you at the lowest price possible. 90% of our heat pump quotes are lower than the national average of £7,904. Our standard installation costs range from as low as £3000 including the Boiler upgrade scheme (similar to a gas boiler system), when including the £5,000 Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant (which BEIS publish monthly on their website). It can cost more if you have a larger home or non standard installation - we'll let you know if your cost estimate. Find out more about potential additional costs in our FAQs.

We'll be able to let you know exactly what you need and how much it costs after your no obligation home survey."

[HughF]

50 degree design temp, hmmm... I'd have liked to see that closer to 45 personally.

[ReedRichards]

50^oC means that you stand more chance of fitting the new radiators where the old ones had been.  You might be able to pay a bit extra to "oversize" the radiators to allow a lower operating temperature.  It depends how flexible the Octopus fitters are with regard to paid-for deviations from their standard spec.

Edited March 13, 2023 by ReedRichards

[lakelandfolk]

I am still in discussion with Octopus re ASHP quotation. We have a spare 32a RCBO in the CU but Octopus say they can not use that but need to take the ASHP electricity supply direct from the external meter box. We have Solar PV and 19kw battery storage. If the supply is taken from the meter as suggested will that not bypass the batteries? We thought the batteries would help to mitigate ASHP consumption.  The proposed pump is an 8kw Daikin, what size cable would be required for a 20m run?

[Kelvin]

Direct from the meter box? For some people (me) that would be completely impractical. Octopus don’t cover my part of Scotland for ASHP installs anyway. 

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

I am still in discussion with Octopus re ASHP quotation. We have a spare 32a RCBO in the CU but Octopus say they can not use that but need to take the ASHP electricity supply direct from the external meter box. We have Solar PV and 19kw battery storage. If the supply is taken from the meter as suggested will that not bypass the batteries? We thought the batteries would help to mitigate ASHP consumption.  The proposed pump is an 8kw Daikin, what size cable would be required for a 20m run?

Go back and challenge. This is nonsense, sorry !!

[ReedRichards]

13 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

I am still in discussion with Octopus re ASHP quotation. We have a spare 32a RCBO in the CU but Octopus say they can not use that but need to take the ASHP electricity supply direct from the external meter box. 

 Presumably that's something to do with the meter box being a more convenient location than your CU.  There's no technical reason why they cant use your RCBO unless more than 32A are required.

 

13 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

If the supply is taken from the meter as suggested will that not bypass the batteries? 

No.

Edited March 29, 2023 by ReedRichards
typo

[Nickfromwales]

21 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

I am still in discussion with Octopus re ASHP quotation. We have a spare 32a RCBO in the CU but Octopus say they can not use that but need to take the ASHP electricity supply direct from the external meter box. We have Solar PV and 19kw battery storage. If the supply is taken from the meter as suggested will that not bypass the batteries? We thought the batteries would help to mitigate ASHP consumption.  The proposed pump is an 8kw Daikin, what size cable would be required for a 20m run?

All depends where the CT clamps reside?

[sharpener]

 

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

All depends where the CT clamps reside?

 

The Cool Energy 10kW only needs a 20A MCB so I very much doubt a Daikin 8kW needs more. Technically 2.5 mm^2 cable is sufficient for the current but for a 20m run I have a feeling you would need 4 mm^2 because of voltage drop. Would it be longer or shorter taken direct from the meter?

 

If they do take a new supply from the meter position they will have to fit Henley blocks and a new mini-CU with main switch as well. They may deliberately be trying to avoid the HP using the batteries. However as Nick implies, if there is a current transformer that can be moved to a point nearer the meter than the HP connection this will put the HP inside the control loop if that is what you want.

 

But you may find that 19kWh does not go very far when it comes to daily HP usage. (OTOH it is twice as much as I have for a 4-bed barn conversion.) Over what range of SoC do you routinely exercise it at the moment? This will give you an idea of the spare capacity available for the HP.

[Marvin]

30 minutes ago, sharpener said:

The Cool Energy 10kW only needs a 20A MCB so I very much doubt a Daikin 8kW needs more. Technically 2.5 mm^2 cable is sufficient for the current but for a 20m run I have a feeling you would need 4 mm^2 because of voltage drop.

COOLENERGY Invertec ASHPs: Fuse for this should be a Type C MCB. See installation manual page 15.  Cable for a 10kW could be 4mm, 6mm, 10mm,16mm....  depending on what cable and how your fixing/what your fixing it to or encasing it in.

 

A good example to help: 

 

https://www.doncastercables.com/technical-help/

 

Good luck

 

Marvin

 

 

[markocosic]

23 hours ago, lakelandfolk said:

I am still in discussion with Octopus re ASHP quotation. We have a spare 32a RCBO in the CU but Octopus say they can not use that but need to take the ASHP electricity supply direct from the external meter box.

 

They're dishonest little toads. 

 

They *can* use an RCBO from the existing CU.

 

They want to bring it all the way back to the meter cupboard such that l later then have the option to sell you a utility company owner widget, installed in your meter cupboard, that can cut forcibly the supply to the heat pump at times of peak use etc - whilst leaving the rest of the house untouched.

 

They won't tell you this openly though. Instead they'll lie about being unable to use the RCBO.

[markocosic]

On 11/03/2023 at 16:34, billt said:

In the radiator sheet I see that they've given the output of the existing radiators in the hall and kitchen as 0. If they put that in their calculations the programme will say that they need to be upgraded. If you can find the iutput of the designer radiators you may find that they are already adequate. According to their figure the Bathroom towel rail does need to be upgrded, but the difference is small and if you are prepared to accept a slightly cooler bathroom you could stick with the existing towel rail. However, I suspect that they will insist on changing it.

 

Agree.

 

MCS worksheet massively overestimates ventilation rate too. It's likely that real world *average# ventilation rate for bathroom will be less than 3 ACH. So existing is fine.

[markocosic]

On 11/03/2023 at 15:55, lakelandfolk said:

I wanted to keep the existing OSO 210L direct electric heated UVC and Solar I Boost, which is only 9 months old and performs really well. 

 

You'll be better off replacing this, using 1/3rd of the PV to heat it via the heat pump, and being paid to export the rest.

 

And you'll have to replace it if you want the BUS as it's a condition that the heating AND hot water are supplied by the heat pump for this.

 

Replacing an OSO with a 200 litre slimline cylinder is a backwards step though. The joule cylinder is naff, insulation wise, compared with your OSO. It's also small at 200 litres. (if you're expecting efficient hot water production by storing at lower temperature than you would with direct electric)

 

They're advising a sCOP of 4 in the letter. You're not getting that with that heat pump and a 50C design temperature and a small cylinder. 3.5 at best.

 

You're responsible for all the real fiddly work here too (making good).

 

The maintenance package will be a waste of time.

 

I see nothing about the antifreeze method in there or where they'll be putting the main iso valves and drain down points etc. Personally I'd avoid glycol in a home that's regularly inhabited in an area where the electricity is reliable.

 

I doubt you'll find any MCS ticketed installers offering it for less though. 

 

They're keeping cost effective smaller outfits out of the game by making it too difficult to comply with all the BUS paperwork; with the BUS being too big an amount for them to compete on an offering that doesn't have BUS support.

[joth]

3 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

They're dishonest little toads. 

 

They *can* use an RCBO from the existing CU.

 

They want to bring it all the way back to the meter cupboard such that l later then have the option to sell you a utility company owner widget, installed in your meter cupboard, that can cut forcibly the supply to the heat pump at times of peak use etc - whilst leaving the rest of the house untouched.

 

They won't tell you this openly though. Instead they'll lie about being unable to use the RCBO.

This is not a ludicrous conspiracy theory for why they're doing it, but honestly yanking out the main power supply to an ASHP they already supplied and installed and no doubt have some sort of cloud control over seems both brutal on the device and operationally inefficient on their side. 

 

My bet is they did a survey of N hundred existing retrofits and found statistically installing it from the meter box was least agro and most in their power to deliver, so they just blindly quote on that as their standard procedure 

 

[TW9]

4 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

They're dishonest little toads. 

 

They *can* use an RCBO from the existing CU.

 

They want to bring it all the way back to the meter cupboard such that l later then have the option to sell you a utility company owner widget, installed in your meter cupboard, that can cut forcibly the supply to the heat pump at times of peak use etc - whilst leaving the rest of the house untouched.

 

They won't tell you this openly though. Instead they'll lie about being unable to use the RCBO.

 

If you want to manage the electricity used by heat pumps you wouldn't do it by cutting all the power. That risks causing all sorts of problems. You'd do it by remotely connecting to the controls.

[markocosic]

2 hours ago, TW9 said:

 

If you want to manage the electricity used by heat pumps you wouldn't do it by cutting all the power. That risks causing all sorts of problems. You'd do it by remotely connecting to the controls.

 

Yes.

 

They'll be making provision for a second meter at the meter cupboard, with a separate tariff, and a separate "Quality of Service" guarantee though.

 

You'll get advance notice to use whatever controller you like to switch the unit down gracefully...and the kill switch if you don't.

 

Or perhaps just separate fiscal metering.

 

Either way this is why they're insistent on powering from the meter cupboard. 😉

[markocosic]

4 hours ago, joth said:

My bet is they did a survey of N hundred existing retrofits and found statistically installing it from the meter box was least agro and most in their power to deliver, so they just blindly quote on that as their standard procedure 

 

That doesn't explain why "it can't be done" is given as a response to feeding from an RCBO though.

 

Quote blind.

 

Offer to allow third party cylinders etc.

 

But refuse to use a way in a CU?

 

They're absolutely provisioning to submeter these at a later date; at the only location within the dwelling that they're permitted to install utility company infrastructure.

 

And they're lying to you if there they say that hat pumps can't be fed from a CU.

 

Not a reason not to take up the offer. But not the truth. 😉

[JohnMo]

Sale men may have just been instructed that is the ONLY way acceptable.  As you say for a later sub meter, so they can mess with your tariffs etc and you can do nothing about it.

 

Conspiracy - possibly...

[markocosic]

There's good sense in submetering.

 

They as a retailer must buy according to your "nominal" load profile. 

 

They as a retailer supplying "electricity" must do so with 100% availability.

 

If they do submeter and have near real time load shedding capability then they're allowed to contract for less than 100% availability and they'd be allowed to buy at the "actual" load profile of that meter point in the marketplace.

 

This would be cheaper. No heat pump leccy 4-7pm in winter? Why absolutely sign here and they'll split the savings.

 

[sharpener]

2 hours ago, markocosic said:

There's good sense in submetering.

 

...

 

This would be cheaper. No heat pump leccy 4-7pm in winter? Why absolutely sign here and they'll split the savings.

 

 

Not a tariff I would want to have. My intended use case includes a burst of heating to bring the living room temp up from setback, so full power for a bit at precisely that time of day.

 

If the financial incentive is sufficient I suppose I could add a thermal store to bridge the demand with water heated earlier in the day, it would take maybe 6kW x 30 mins which is a feasible amount.

[joth]

12 hours ago, markocosic said:

There's good sense in submetering.

Absolutely. But doing it with physical control like a fat contactor switch in the submeter is very 1970s E7 thinking. 

 

21st century IoT will have each controlled device individually managed in the logical plane, not via killing the power to them.

 

Reasons I believe this:

- E7 tariffs themselves have moved away from using a central contractor

- smart meters already have ability to kill the power but it's considered to be unsafe for use in the UK, as (a) there could be life support equipment in the house that mustnt be disconnected and (b) a remote re-enable of power may occur when it's unsafe to do so (worse case someone has their finger in the power line trying to figure out why it's not working).

- you can get much more granular control via logical plane e.g. only turn off certain devices, or disable certain operations (comfort heating off, but DHW and eco heating on, etc)

- you get better monitoring and maintenance reporting 

- it's less harsh on an electromechanical device to have it manage it's own power off/on cycle then regularly killing the main power to it.

- logical control still works even if the home owner messes about with the wiring topology (e.g. renovation moves appliances around and connects them to different circuits).

 

Obviously IoT brings a plethora of its own challenges, plus the who ethic of revenue sharing for this needs figuring out however it's done, but seems highly probable if it happens at all it will be via digital control of devices.