UFH or Infrared Heating

[miike]

I've got a 500m2 new build that is about to start and I'm looking at heating options. I was originally planning on an ASHP with UFH throughout but I had an interesting alternative pitched to me recently. A friends family owns a german manufacturer of infrared heaters and are willing to provide their units at cost to me. Never heard much about them but they seem to be quite popular in other European countries.  

 

The ASHP will be £10k and the UFH would be £55 sqm - total £37,500 to heat the house. 

Infrared would be £15k, although I'd still probably add electric UFH in the bathrooms so call it £20k all in.

 

So there's a pretty decent saving with the infrared and the budget is already tight. The question is whether I'd then be putting potential future buyers off or affecting the property value with the infrared heating system. 

 

Does anyone know of any new builds that used infrared?

[Bonner]

I went to see a passive house which had only IR heaters. Could work in very low heat demand properties but otherwise I expect expensive to run. Have you done a heat demand calculation? Is this single or double storey? If two storey, you are unlikely to need much heating upstairs. The UFH cost seems very high. And yes, it is likely to put future buyer off.

[MikeSharp01]

They looked at this IR wallpaper idea on the BBC earlier this month.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64402524

 

 

[JohnMo]

6 hours ago, miike said:

UFH would be £55 sqm

Someone is taking you for an expensive ride.

 

Remember you still need to heat DHW IR will not do that.

[Sparrowhawk]

6 hours ago, miike said:

I've got a 500m2 new build that is about to start and I'm looking at heating options. I was originally planning on an ASHP with UFH throughout but I had an interesting alternative pitched to me recently. A friends family owns a german manufacturer of infrared heaters and are willing to provide their units at cost to me. Never heard much about them but they seem to be quite popular in other European countries.  

 

I like, nay love, the feel of IR heating on my face. Those who compare it to being out in sunshine are right. (I also notice radiative heating from radiators et al so if you don't YMMV).

 

I have been entertaining myself by asking IR panel companies, particularly those who talk about "academic research done" to provide basic information, like how much energy is output at different wavelengths to show conversion efficiency beyond "heat". They go very silient when pushed for substance behind their marketing. I have evidence that a UK manufacturer who advertises widely has taken their 'research' out of context and the organisation that carried it out is... distinctly unhappy with how it's being misrepresented.

 

If your friend's family would like to share any research they have had done, I would be very interested.

 

On costs, what do you think the annual heating requirements for your house will be? Are you building a Passivhaus?

How long do you expect to live there? Calculate the annual running costs and see how they stack up.

[Sparrowhawk]

14 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Someone is taking you for an expensive ride.

What would you say is a reasonable sqm cost for UFH?

[Conor]

Running costs of the IR will be about 3x more than the ASHP. And for water heating as well as without some sort of boiler/heatpump you'll be using direct immersion heating.

 

The rate you've been given for UFH is about 4x higher than what I paid. About £4k for 270m² over three floors. (I did some of the pipe laying myself but probably only saved £400)

 

However... If you are building to passisive standards and have minimal heatoad, then some sort of low level direct electric heating running off peak is a serious option.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Conor

[eandg]

Unless your UFH pipes are made of gold then your price looks about twice or more what it should be. 

[JohnMo]

I dod the UFH install my self.  But the loops took less than two days to install on 192m2.  Including filling and leak testing.

 

I think you are being quoted circa £20k to much.

 

So let's break the cost down - in your case say 2 guys 4 to 5 days, would be ample to install the loops and connect to manifold. At £50 per HR. So £4000.  Ever if it's double that, you are still way to expensive.

 

Materials

UFH pipe £62 per hundred meter. Let's say you need 1500m = £930

 

Two Ivar manifolds, mixers and umpsat £400 each. £800, let's say £200 for other stuff.

 

One-man one day for filling, purging and commissioning £400

 

Total £6400 round u to £7000.  So in a similar ball park to @Conor

[Conor]

@Sparrowhawk how do you find the IR panels compared to the old fashioned radiant (glowing red hot) heaters that you find outside a pub? We've a covered patio area and I'm thinking the IR panels are a better option than the incandescent filament type heaters. Latter is a no go really.

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, miike said:

Does anyone know of any new builds that used infrared?

Says all you need to know really.

If IR was a viable option, ten we would all be using it.

[JohnMo]

There was a house builder near Nottingham or Lincoln using them on near passivhaus builds.  They were all ceiling mounted.  How good - no idea.

 

If they are just heating the person not the room maybe they could be cost effective, would need presence sensors that knew you were coming in to the room a minute or so before you actually did, so they would be up to temperature before you walked in to the room.  But any part of your body in a shadow of the IR heater would stay cold, feel cold.

 

UFH heats the room and the body, you have a room temp of 19/20 and feel comfortable.  As mentioned above, at less than 1/3 of the running costs due to CoP.

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, miike said:

So there's a pretty decent saving with the infrared and the budget is already tight. The question is whether I'd then be putting potential future buyers off or affecting the property value with the infrared heating system. 

 

Does anyone know of any new builds that used infrared?

If I was given them for free, let alone cost, I'd still put them on eBay and use the money to off-set the cost of installing full wet UFH. The running costs, proportional to the dwelling type accepted, will still be THE most expensive option out there. It'll be on a par with LPG!! Yes, they're 100% efficient or thereabouts, but they still need to be fed direct mains electricity on demand and have zero ability to store / offer sustain.

 

Furniture plan will be constrained by the location of these, so "moving rooms about" goes out the window ( as these will need dedicated circuits / outlets ) and they will be adversely unsympathetic in terms of comfort as they heat what they 'hit'.

 

Charging a constructional slab ( insulated "passive" raft ) via an ASHP from cheap rate electricity in a low energy dwelling can see your cost per kWh of heat being down as low as 5p, but the least you;ll see with direct will be the cheapest rate(s) I know of atm, which range from 22p to 35p.

 

It's proportional as I say, but running costs / future buyers fears are the big concerns.

 

👎 

 

[IanR]

8 hours ago, miike said:

The ASHP will be £10k and the UFH would be £55 sqm - total £37,500 to heat the house. 

 

Just to reinforce what others are saying, I have 421m² of UFH for which I paid £5,500 for in 2017 including help for 1st fix install. I paid a premium at the time as it was added on to my insulated raft package and came from ThermoTech in Sweden who aren't the cheapest. It included system design, a group manifold and mixer + 2 further distribution manifolds, 1800m of Ø17 pipe and x20 electronic proportional actuators
 

That makes just over £13/m², although didn't include commissioning or controls.

 

As for Infrared v. ASHP. ASHP, no question. 300% more efficiency, DHW included and cooling if you want it.

Edited February 24, 2023 by IanR

[Nickfromwales]

40 minutes ago, Conor said:

@Sparrowhawk how do you find the IR panels compared to the old fashioned radiant (glowing red hot) heaters that you find outside a pub? We've a covered patio area and I'm thinking the IR panels are a better option than the incandescent filament type heaters. Latter is a no go really.

Great option for anywhere you could be sat down and the heat can literally be pointed at you. Beware, as the second you move away from the field of heat you'll go stone cold instantly. The big benefit is that even in windy conditions you stay 'heated'. I've no need to tell you that they need to be on constant, but they are zero maintenance and super-convenient.  

 

 

Edit to add, make sure they're IP rated for outdoor use!!

Edited February 24, 2023 by Nickfromwales

[Iceverge]

Is there any merit to these in a bathroom ? 

 

Fick on for 5 mins after a shower while I dry my danglys for that instant blast of primal infrared and flick off again. 

 

Minimal heat up time so no wasted heating the bathroom to 24 all day everyday. 

 

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Is there any merit to these in a bathroom ? 

 

Fick on for 5 mins after a shower while I dry my danglys for that instant blast of primal infrared and flick off again. 

 

Minimal heat up time so no wasted heating the bathroom to 24 all day everyday. 

 

Indeed. I'm fitting one for a current client, for this exact reason. It's a 'passive house' so will have no heating on the 1st floor, will have an electric towel warmer on 24/7, and then a small ( 600mm x 300mm ) matt white IR panel for said quick blast of heat when drying off after a shower.

 

I am installing a Quinetic momentary push switch + non-latching receiver which will trigger a countdown timer ( 5 mins ) so after a shower it can be activated with wet hands but it cannot be left on inadvertently after exiting the room. 

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Nickfromwales said:

while I dry my danglys

Apologies, I missed this.

 

 

I just googled the specs, and they don't make one that small, really sorry  

[Iceverge]

@Nickfromwales

 

I'll refer you to a post of one of our fellow members . 

 

[Nickfromwales]

 

[Conor]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Edit to add, make sure they're IP rated for outdoor use!!

 

 

From my coursory searches I didn't see any jumping out that had IP rating. They will be under a 2m deep fully waterproof overhang so I could chance an indoor one.

[miike]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

I dod the UFH install my self.  But the loops took less than two days to install on 192m2.  Including filling and leak testing.

 

I think you are being quoted circa £20k to much.

 

So let's break the cost down - in your case say 2 guys 4 to 5 days, would be ample to install the loops and connect to manifold. At £50 per HR. So £4000.  Ever if it's double that, you are still way to expensive.

 

Materials

UFH pipe £62 per hundred meter. Let's say you need 1500m = £930

 

Two Ivar manifolds, mixers and umpsat £400 each. £800, let's say £200 for other stuff.

 

One-man one day for filling, purging and commissioning £400

 

Total £6400 round u to £7000.  So in a similar ball park to @Conor

 

Thanks for these figures, looks like I was quoted a pretty extortionate rate. Looking at the work which goes into laying the pipe, it seems like something I could potentially do myself if I can't get a sharp quote. 

 

6 hours ago, Bonner said:

I went to see a passive house which had only IR heaters. Could work in very low heat demand properties but otherwise I expect expensive to run. Have you done a heat demand calculation? Is this single or double storey? If two storey, you are unlikely to need much heating upstairs. The UFH cost seems very high. And yes, it is likely to put future buyer off.

 

It's a three storey house, the bottom floor being a semi submerged basement. I'm currently staying in a well insulated (but nothing special) apartment and I haven't had the heating on once in the past month and it still stays around 20c, so I'm thinking that in a well insulated property you only need occasional boosts to keep it heated.

 

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Says all you need to know really.

If IR was a viable option, ten we would all be using it.

 

That's the thing, I've seen quite a few places using them in other countries but they're a rarity here. So it does seem viable in other places.

 

2 hours ago, Iceverge said:

Is there any merit to these in a bathroom ? 

 

Fick on for 5 mins after a shower while I dry my danglys for that instant blast of primal infrared and flick off again. 

 

Minimal heat up time so no wasted heating the bathroom to 24 all day everyday. 

 

 

The company I'm looking at produce IR panels that are mirrored for use in a bathroom as well as towel racks. May get one of them even if I opt for the full UFH system. 

[SteamyTea]

27 minutes ago, miike said:

So it does seem viable in other places.

 'doveryay, no proveryay'

[Mike]

27 minutes ago, miike said:

The company I'm looking at produce IR panels that are mirrored for use in a bathroom as well as towel racks. May get one of them even if I opt for the full UFH system. 

I used to have an IR ceiling heater in a bathroom - it didn't last long. The problem with IR is that it provides line-of-sight heating - it will warm only the side of you facing it. Central heating, especially UFCH, is vastly superior.

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

I used to have an IR ceiling heater in a bathroom - it didn't last long. The problem with IR is that it provides line-of-sight heating - it will warm only the side of you facing it. Central heating, especially UFCH, is vastly superior.

I have a sunbed kicking about, moved house with me a few times.

Great for warming up on, and you get a tan.

Probably delivers around  1 kW/m².

No reason it cannot be wall or ceiling mounted.