Post and beam Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Quote is for a Grant Aerona and a 300litre cylinder. Take the cost of the hardware out of the mix ( £6k) and it leave £8k to install it. Into a new build. I am required to prepare the concrete base and deliver electrics and water to within 1 metre of the install location so even less for the installers to do. I am struggling to appreciate the value of the installation task. Help me understand please. keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 sheer daylight robbery. at £250 a day ask them how long they will be onsite for, a month ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Valley Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Our 8.5kw Ecodan with 210 litre cylinder together with all the associated header tanks and pipework cost just less than £10k from a reputable installer in Sept 2022. We then got a £5k rebate from the govt so just less than £5k in total. The pipework and electrical connections to the UFH manifolds were done by the plumber separately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 The biggest cost I have found with my self install is the piping, valves, armoured cable, and general stuff. But you are having to provide all that. I think the grant heat pumps come with flex hoses, so if all the water is within a metre no piping to install, no wiring - think they don't want the job and are pricing high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) £6k for a heatpump and tank sounds cheap. My coolenergy was £6300 (far cheaper than a big brand) ex vat excluding pipework, lagging, pumps, valves etc. Easily another thousand. But sounds like that is on top of their costs which is crazy. So all they are doing is dropping it in and connecting it up..is it a preplumbed cylinder. Is there a buffer? Our install labour worked out at about 7 working days, £1400. Excluding the UFH stuff. Edited February 17, 2023 by Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, Conor said: Our install labour worked out at about 7 working days, £1400. 7 days for the ashp/cylinder install ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramco Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 26 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Help me understand please. I'm guessing you asked a company with the term 'renewables' on their web site. Today's double glazing salesmen. 8 minutes ago, Conor said: My coolenergy was £6300 (far cheaper than a big brand) ex vat excluding pipework, lagging, pumps, valves etc. Easily another thousand. Our coolenergy was £5.2k installed - the UFH buffer tank and DHW tank were installed by our main contractors plumber. With the BUS £5k grant it cost us £200. We had to make sure that the electrical connections were in place - these were done by our main contractors electrician. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 14 minutes ago, Conor said: £6k for a heatpump and tank sounds cheap. Plenty of plumbing suppliers have the Grant 10kw listed on their sites at about £6k with a cylinder included. Thats what i used to deduct £6k from the total quote i was given. Leaving the £8k for the install. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Sorry to go a little off topic I’d a call from a HP installer-Seller saying the 5k rebate was still claimable I thought the grants had come to an end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy_wafer Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Just now, nod said: Sorry to go a little off topic I’d a call from a HP installer-Seller saying the 5k rebate was still claimable I thought the grants had come to an end Found this on the statistics for BUS. found here Boiler Upgrade Scheme statistics: December 2022 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy_wafer Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 17 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Plenty of plumbing suppliers have the Grant 10kw listed on their sites at about £6k with a cylinder included. Thats what i used to deduct £6k from the total quote i was given. Leaving the £8k for the install. Daylight robbery, <expletive> bandits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 It is dear. The quote I have is £11k for the Ecodan, cylinder, all electrics and plumbing, install and commissioning. Which I thought was a little on the high side. Less the Scottish grant which includes the rural uplift for us so cost is £2k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 20 minutes ago, nod said: Sorry to go a little off topic I’d a call from a HP installer-Seller saying the 5k rebate was still claimable I thought the grants had come to an end Apologies, i dont understand this. Oh and the grant scheme is deffo still active Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 I have had a bit of a back and forth e mail conversation with the potential installer. They wont budge on their price and dont want to detail all of the little extra's that are required to install. Therefore they stick by their £8k installation. Still looks to me( ignorant of plumbing intricacies) like a lot of money to drop a pump onto the plinth, connect it and commission/instruct me on its best use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 From my own experience I'd say this is quite the norm. 15-20K total less the bus so 10-15k net. Unfortunately the MCS stranglehold combined with the shortage of labour caused by the building boom and Brexit means that installers can charge what they want, and indeed do what they want. And woe betide you if you question them in any way, have design preferences, however logical, which differ from their rules, or offer to do any prep work. If you can avoid MCS, as others on this forum have found, then it's apparently possible to get it done for a sane price. I'm still hoping that there are some reasonable MCS installers out there for my own retrofit, but beginning to doubt it. It's no surprise, given this, that the BUS has been a failure. Hopefully octopus will shake the market up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 20 minutes ago, JamesPa said: If you can avoid MCS Forgive me but i thought this was a requirement of the building control in some way, please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 15 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Forgive me but i thought this was a requirement of the building control in some way, please explain. No it’s just a certification scheme to give consumers confidence that their installation has been done to a certain standard. The quid pro quo is you can get a discount on the install if done by an MCS certified installer. The apparent issue is that the installers may be adding the discount onto their cost such that the consumer doesn’t actually benefit from it. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/microgeneration-certification-scheme-mcs-transfer-to-mcs-service-company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Forgive me but i thought this was a requirement of the building control in some way, please explain. MCS is not required for building control but is required for the BUS or if the HP is to be installed under permitted development (ie without express planning consent) Strictly the latter only requires that the install is 'to MCS planning standards' but 'MCS planning standards' (written by MCS) require that the installation be done by an MCS registered contractor to MCS installation standards, and the latter require that the design be done by an MCS registered designer. If you install under express planning consent and don't want a grant MCS isn't needed. However if your LPA is like mine they will require a more rigorous (almost unachievable in my case) noise constraint than the noise constraint that applies if the installation is under permitted development, thus closing off this avenue. If you are lucky enough to have a more sane LPA or it's part of a bigger development so this level of detail gets ignored, then you can install under express consent with no grant and no MCS. Edited February 19, 2023 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 21 minutes ago, Kelvin said: The apparent issue is that the installers may be adding the discount onto their cost such that the consumer doesn’t actually benefit from it. This is doubtless true, but the problem goes further. The MCS design standards are quite rigid and so, certainly in my case, more or less force a larger than necessary unit. Furthermore the installers (at least those that have quoted me) want to throw out and replace lots of perfectly good secondary components, adding further cost and contributing to environmental damage. The way the standard is written tends to encourage this. There is probably a way to interpret the MCS standards to avoid this, but why, as an installer, would you bother? I'm not saying MCS is bad, but it clearly has some issues. BUS is, by common consent, not working well (low take up). Perhaps there is a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 I have just been through the Scottish legislation and basically if it can't be seen and "an ASHP must comply with MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards", important bit is equivalent. it is permitted development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 17/02/2023 at 09:30, Dave Jones said: sheer daylight robbery. at £250 a day ask them how long they will be onsite for, a month ? At that price, a heating company would go bust. It's 2023, not 1990. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 17/02/2023 at 09:47, Conor said: £6k for a heatpump and tank sounds cheap. My coolenergy was £6300 (far cheaper than a big brand) ex vat excluding pipework, lagging, pumps, valves etc. Easily another thousand. But sounds like that is on top of their costs which is crazy. So all they are doing is dropping it in and connecting it up..is it a preplumbed cylinder. Is there a buffer? Our install labour worked out at about 7 working days, £1400. Excluding the UFH stuff. Panasonic Aquarea 9kW for a sniff over £3,100. Telford 400L UVC = change of £1600. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, JohnMo said: I have just been through the Scottish legislation and basically if it can't be seen and "an ASHP must comply with MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards", important bit is equivalent. it is permitted development. Ok I'm talking about England (and Wales I think) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/14/made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, JamesPa said: I'm talking about England (and Wales I am just adding clarity for the whole of the UK. But the English and Welsh standard you linked to is basically word word identical. Starting as below "equivalent" Development not permitted G.1 Development is not permitted by Class G unless the air source heat pump complies with the MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards. So it doesn't need to be installed to MCS standards by MCS certified installer. In any part of the Uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, JohnMo said: G.1 Development is not permitted by Class G unless the air source heat pump complies with the MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards Except that the 'MCS planning standards' specifically say that, to meet them, the installation must be by an MCS registered installer'. Currently so far as I have been able to ascertain there are no ' equivalent standards' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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