A2A DIY Install

[S2D2]

Does anyone have any experience/thoughts on the electriQ heat pump which claims to be suitable for DIY install: https://www.electriq.co.uk/p/eiq-12wminv/electriq-12000-btu-panasonic-powered-smart-wall-mounted-split-air-conditioner-with-heat-pump-5-meters-pipe-kit-and

 

>Does not require installation by an F-Gas registered engineer or specialist equipment for typical installation – everything you need is supplied.

 

With a SCoP of 4.1 it's a tempting alternative to just exporting the excess solar and burning gas to heat the house. Provided the SCoP stays above 3 in reality that is, I'm unsure how much the data sheets can be trusted on this?

[Iceverge]

Watching with interest. 

 

@Jenki used this I think....

[Radian]

 

[Jenki]

3 hours ago, S2D2 said:

Does anyone have any experience/thoughts on the electriQ heat pump which claims to be suitable for DIY install: https://www.electriq.co.uk/p/eiq-12wminv/electriq-12000-btu-panasonic-powered-smart-wall-mounted-split-air-conditioner-with-heat-pump-5-meters-pipe-kit-and

 

>Does not require installation by an F-Gas registered engineer or specialist equipment for typical installation – everything you need is supplied.

 

With a SCoP of 4.1 it's a tempting alternative to just exporting the excess solar and burning gas to heat the house. Provided the SCoP stays above 3 in reality that is, I'm unsure how much the data sheets can be trusted on this?

I fitted a Telefunken in the blog @Radian linked. I've also fitted 2 9000 BTU electriQ in some cabins I built. The latter have had little use yet but are much better than Telefunken.

I bought the vacuum pump for around £90.

 

 

[S2D2]

2 hours ago, Radian said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Jenki said:

I fitted a Telefunken in the blog @Radian linked. I've also fitted 2 9000 BTU electriQ in some cabins I built. The latter have had little use yet but are much better than Telefunken.

I bought the vacuum pump for around £90.

 

 

 

Thanks both, I read this blog with great interest at the time and now that you don't even need a vacuum pump with the DIY model I'm considering jumping in. I guess the newer electriQ models still don't give you any sort of CoP estimate @Jenki? Do the Daikens @Radian? I have a load of smart meter data so could estimate it once installed, I just wondered if anyone else had done the same before I trust their claim of 4.1 CoP when there's so many A2W installs falling short of the manufacturer's claim atm, albeit not all the manufacturer's fault.

Edited February 13, 2023 by S2D2

[Jenki]

21 minutes ago, S2D2 said:

 

 

Thanks both, I read this blog with great interest at the time and now that you don't even need a vacuum pump with the DIY model I'm considering jumping in. I guess the newer electriQ models still don't give you any sort of CoP estimate @Jenki? Do the Daikens @Radian? I have a load of smart meter data so could estimate it once installed, I just wondered if anyone else had done the same before I trust their claim of 4.1 CoP when there's so many A2W installs falling short of the manufacturer's claim atm, albeit not all the manufacturer's fault.

I still think it is wise to use a vacuum pump. Otherwise you would dilute the gas with the air in the pipe? Also chance of adding moisture at the same time. Or am I missing something ? 

I only installed the heat pumps about 2 months ago and I used the vacuum pump.

 

Not got any data yet on the electriQ models yet.

[Radian]

1 hour ago, S2D2 said:

Do the Daikens @Radian? I have a load of smart meter data so could estimate it once installed, I just wondered if anyone else had done the same before I trust their claim of 4.1 CoP when there's so many A2W installs falling short of the manufacturer's claim atm, albeit not all the manufacturer's fault.

 

I haven't got around to accurately logging the power use against indoor/outdoor temperatures and known losses to check the published data. But honestly, from the power consumption alone (compared to the resistive heating I was previously using) it's still like a miracle to me that you can do comfortable space heating for so little energy input. But now I've been reminded I'll make it a priority logging task before the heating season is over.

[S2D2]

53 minutes ago, Jenki said:

I still think it is wise to use a vacuum pump. Otherwise you would dilute the gas with the air in the pipe? Also chance of adding moisture at the same time. Or am I missing something ? 

I was assuming based on this being sold as "including everything you need"  that one side is pre-gassed and one side is evacuated then the two mix when you lock the connector in. I'm struggling to find the install instructions for V3 though so I could be way off the mark. Thanks for the feedback both, it sounds like it lines up with expectations which is encouraging!

[Bashers]

I'm not sure they can legally sell you that unit without seeing your F certificate.

 

Throughout the rest of the world you can buy and self install, so it smells a bit like the required MCS install of solar panels and batteries racket i think.

 

Simly hop over to mainland europe and pick up a Easy install DIY unit and bring it back.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Bashers

[S2D2]

2 hours ago, Bashers said:

I'm not sure they can legally sell you that unit without seeing your F certificate.

 

Throughout the rest of the world you can buy and self install, so it smells a bit like the required MCS install of solar panels and batteries racket i think.

 

Simly hop over to mainland europe and pick up a Easy install DIY unit and bring it back.

I did get confused by all the other units that were easy fit but required an fgas engineer. As far as I can tell the difference with this one is the use of R290 which is not covered by fgas. Indeed having seen the installation manual now the install without a vacuum pump just floods the pipe with a bit of coolant which you then bleed out to the atmosphere. Apparently it's not much worse than CO2, none of the fgas nasties. Still highly flammable mind.

 

Would the flushing install method reduce the CoP due to a tiny bit of air still in the system or would it just limit peak power output a bit?

[Jenki]

If you buy from appliances direct. You need to tell them who you are using. They give you a list in your area to select from.

Just select one. And when it arrives call them to install 😉

[HughF]

An R290 split? That's brave..... Most of them are still on R32 because of the risks involved with R290 leaking inside the home.

 

Your fridge freezer has a limited volume of R600 (Butane) for this very reason.

[S2D2]

15 minutes ago, HughF said:

An R290 split? That's brave..... Most of them are still on R32 because of the risks involved with R290 leaking inside the home.

 

Your fridge freezer has a limited volume of R600 (Butane) for this very reason.

400g charge apparently, so bigger than a fridge freezer. No joins allowed internally, but still not worth the risk you reckon?

[HughF]

5 minutes ago, S2D2 said:

400g charge apparently, so bigger than a fridge freezer. No joins allowed internally, but still not worth the risk you reckon?

100% worth the risk. I was just commenting that it was brave of the manufacturers to put that sort of product onto the market.

 

The sooner we move away from f-gas the better.

 

I might even buy one to make a DIY heat pump water heater out of.

[S2D2]

I notice the old versions of this model used to have higher power options (with an f-gas coolant) so 400g is presumably the upper limit set by some regulation. Payback if as advertised is around one year with the PV, I'm tempted.

[Dillsue]

We have a propane back up boiler in the centre of the house with no concerns about 47kg bottles of gas connected to soldered gas pipework. Much lower pressure but the connected volume is massively more.

[crispy_wafer]

Do it! or if you have an external wall, get one of the wall mounts. Like Unico Air Conditioning - Air 8 HP - Heating and Cooling (saturnsales.co.uk)

 

 

[HughF]

7 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

We have a propane back up boiler in the centre of the house with no concerns about 47kg bottles of gas connected to soldered gas pipework. Much lower pressure but the connected volume is massively more.

Yeah, the regs/advice is a bit weird concerning r290 in air conditioning units inside the house...

[HughF]

16 hours ago, Jenki said:

I still think it is wise to use a vacuum pump. Otherwise you would dilute the gas with the air in the pipe? Also chance of adding moisture at the same time. Or am I missing something ? 

I only installed the heat pumps about 2 months ago and I used the vacuum pump.

 

Not got any data yet on the electriQ models yet.

Always wise to vacuum the line set down to verify connection integrity. Even with a non f-gas appliance.

[Dave C]

1 hour ago, crispy_wafer said:

Do it! or if you have an external wall, get one of the wall mounts. Like Unico Air Conditioning - Air 8 HP - Heating and Cooling (saturnsales.co.uk)

 

 

 

That looked interesting until I saw the note in the documentation about it switching to purely resistance heating at 2C and below!

 

Same question applies to the electriQ - it has a note about heating performance dropping off below 5C. But by how much?! I don't really care so much what the heating COP is when it's 10C outside, don't need much heat input then, the COP when temperatures are approaching freezing is much more interesting...

[crispy_wafer]

Yep, true, got to read the blurb and make sure you don't get your pants pulled.

 

There are a couple of different types of these, according to the flyer only the R version has the element.  Then there are some different ones at appliance direct too.  The efficiency isnt anywhere as good as the split types, I guess you could work out the real world difference

[Radian]

25 minutes ago, Dave C said:

I don't really care so much what the heating COP is when it's 10C outside, don't need much heat input then, the COP when temperatures are approaching freezing is much more interesting...

 

Since getting a couple of Daikin A2As installed in our grown-ups play rooms, looking back at our highest energy use, 12 December was our coldest day at an average of -2^oC. On that day our two 'as advertised' 3.5kW heating units gobbled around 10kWh hours of leccy between them keeping 60m2 of space heated to between 17^oC and 19^oC (night/day). That's therefore, in very broad terms, replacing the calculated fabric loss of roughly 2kW (48kWh/day) with a COP of 4.8 Incidentally, this space has a not insignificant (25m²⁾ of glazing to contend with.

 

@SteamyTea would probably say that £3.40 is a bargain for enough energy to keep these rooms usable. All the same, I'm just thankful such cold days are a rarity here. However, getting a COP of nearly 5 does make it a practical proposition compared with the previous year when we just didn't use the space in the winter.

[SteamyTea]

38 minutes ago, Radian said:

@SteamyTea would probably say that £3.40 is a bargain for enough energy to keep these rooms usable.

Here is my cost profile for the last 11 days, £3.36/day all in.

 

 

[Dave C]

51 minutes ago, Radian said:

 

That's therefore, in very broad terms, replacing the calculated fabric loss of roughly 2kW (48kWh/day) with a COP of 4.8 Incidentally, this space has a not insignificant (25m²⁾ of glazing to contend with.

 

Thanks, that's good info - COP of 4.8 at below freezing temperatures is really encouraging! At the very least it shows there's some A2A options out there which keep a good COP at low temperatures. Still interested to see how well the electriQ holds up - that note about performance dropping off below 5C is still a bit suspicious...

[S2D2]

On 14/02/2023 at 16:50, Dave C said:

 

Thanks, that's good info - COP of 4.8 at below freezing temperatures is really encouraging! At the very least it shows there's some A2A options out there which keep a good COP at low temperatures. Still interested to see how well the electriQ holds up - that note about performance dropping off below 5C is still a bit suspicious...

It is oddly vague, but based on how SCOP is calculated and the balance point being specified as -7 I would expect 4.2 (stated in manual, 4.1 on product page...) to be pretty close to the average performance short of them straight up making up figures. All heat pumps have reduced COP as the temperature differential increases so I guess it's just referencing that? It's not like A2W where there are lots of variables affecting this, it's a closed system so should perform as expected? I believe @Radian's have a SCOP of 5.15 so the real life performance staying close to this at low temperatures is encouraging.

 

I was almost convinced, then Octopus went and added 50% to export rates with Flux so a bit more thinking needed.