I'd like to educate the planning officer about the importance of rectangular form in preference to the local vernacular.

[MDC]

I'm struggling with my planning officer. 

 

I've presented a contemporary barn design in my planning application, which is to be set in pastureland. It's a two storey rectangular form. I have chosen this design because it's a rural setting and the rectangular box is the most efficient in terms of energy efficiency / cold bridging and so on, and it allows me to go for optimum orientation. 

 

The planning officer says the design does not reflect the local traditional build forms, which are inevitably more complex and comparatively thermally inefficient. 

 

Can anyone point me to a simple text which explains how the rectangular build form is the most efficient form, so I can crib off it to the planning officer? I'd like to be able to reference something to add authority to my application.

 

Thank you.

[nod]

It would make no difference if it was written in blood 

Getting a planning officer to change there stance is difficult 

[twice round the block]

Wind up your planning officer.!!!

 

Let us know how your getting on with your application in a couple of years ??

 

You should know there on a parallel universe to the rest of us.

[IanR]

55 minutes ago, MDC said:

which are inevitably more complex and comparatively thermally inefficient. 

 

It's going to be pretty negligible on a new build, you can mitigate less efficient plan view profiles. To the planning officer the local vernacular is more important than you achieving the ideal U value with the least amount of insulation.

 

You're better off arguing against what the Planning Officer is putting forward as the local vernacular. Although if their argument is sound then compromise will get you a positive outcome far quicker than trying to tell the planning officer they are wrong.

[MikeSharp01]

4 minutes ago, IanR said:

To the planning officer the local vernacular is more important than you achieving the ideal U value with the least amount of insulation.

Then the law needs changing.

[Jilly]

How are you getting round the fact it's in pasture land?

[Kelvin]

If you haven’t done so search the planning portal for anything nearby that’s more like what you’re trying to accomplish. But as above the local vernacular will take priority. Also look through their planning policies and see what they have on sustainability etc

[MDC]

12 minutes ago, Jilly said:

How are you getting round the fact it's in pasture land?

There's a 1/2 acre garden plot in the middle of 14 acres and an existing 1950's suburban chalet bungalow therein. To me, it's all the same, as the garden and the pasture are exactly the same.

[MDC]

Just now, Kelvin said:

If you haven’t done so search the planning portal for anything nearby that’s more like what you’re trying to accomplish. But as above the local vernacular will take priority. Also look through their planning policies and see what they have on sustainability etc

They have declared a climate emergency. Is that enough??

[Kelvin]

Is it in their planning policy…

[ToughButterCup]

Your problem was exactly the one I had a few years back.

 

The short answer is : you can nudge, cajole, hint , suggest - but educate - I suspect thats a step too far with a planner.

Look at this image

 

The cottages further down our  lane are often called 'a chocolate-box row of cottages' . And we go and plonk a passivhaus 'monstrosity' on the same lane. 

 

I'm not known for cutting a long story short, but I'm going to have to. Because you'd die of boredom reading about the ticklish, delicate fussing we needed to do to get the planner to agree. Loads of compromise, lots of patience, many many sleepless nights. And a friggin' brilliant  diplomat of an architect.

 

The house has weathered now to a silvery grey - the image shows new wooden cladding. Now, all grey and silver, it looks like a barn conversion - Thats what sold it to the planner.  Something new (our house)  taking a lesson from what's already there .... farms with solid wooden clad barns; over the years they fade to silvery grey.

 

Compromise, patience, subtle flattery, listening. And nerve. 

 

The chair of the council dropped in to our place the other day (about our neighbour who is testing HM Inspectorate a bit) .

Originally, she had objected strongly to our proposal......  Looking round she said

 

"I see what you were on about now : it fades into the countryside doesn't it "

 

As ever, Ian puts it well,

 

2 hours ago, IanR said:

...Although if their argument is sound then compromise will get you a positive outcome far quicker than trying to tell the planning officer they are wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

Well I had exactly the same problem, no matter what compromise I made they would not budge, but told me “if you went to appeal you would probably win” !!! So i did and won hands down with the appeal decision telling the planners they were not abiding by their own policies 😱. Don’t be afraid to go to appeal, in my opinion it’s easier than applying for planning (and I did mine myself).

[MDC]

9 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Your problem was exactly the one I had a few years back.

 

The short answer is : you can nudge, cajole, hint , suggest - but educate - I suspect thats a step too far with a planner.

Look at this image

 

The cottages further down our  lane are often called 'a chocolate-box row of cottages' . And we go and plonk a passivhaus 'monstrosity' on the same lane. 

 

I'm not known for cutting a long story short, but I'm going to have to. Because you'd die of boredom reading about the ticklish, delicate fussing we needed to do to get the planner to agree. Loads of compromise, lots of patience, many many sleepless nights. And a friggin' brilliant  diplomat of an architect.

 

The house has weathered now to a silvery grey - the image shows new wooden cladding. Now, all grey and silver, it looks like a barn conversion - Thats what sold it to the planner.  Something new (our house)  taking a lesson from what's already there .... farms with solid wooden clad barns; over the years they fade to silvery grey.

 

Compromise, patience, subtle flattery, listening. And nerve. 

 

The chair of the council dropped in to our place the other day (about our neighbour who is testing HM Inspectorate a bit) .

Originally, she had objected strongly to our proposal......  Looking round she said

 

"I see what you were on about now : it fades into the countryside doesn't it "

 

As ever, Ian puts it well,

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much for this. It's a big help.

[MDC]

9 hours ago, joe90 said:

Well I had exactly the same problem, no matter what compromise I made they would not budge, but told me “if you went to appeal you would probably win” !!! So i did and won hands down with the appeal decision telling the planners they were not abiding by their own policies 😱. Don’t be afraid to go to appeal, in my opinion it’s easier than applying for planning (and I did mine myself).

This sounds like the planning officer had the job of upholding a policy they didn't necessarily believe in, so what you planned wasn't so bad, but it didn't conform to the strict interpretation of policy. Is this a reasonable interpretation?

 

I met our planning officer on site last Friday. The debate was all about policy, not about what works. If I've understood you, this gives me hope! Thank you.

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, twice round the block said:

Wind up your planning officer.!!!

 

Let us know how your getting on with your application in a couple of years ??

 

You should know there on a parallel universe to the rest of us.

Exactly what I did. Complained about the Planning Dept. to the Chief Executive of the Council. When he supported his Planning Dept. I complained to the Ombudsman, which wound them up a bit. They continued to refuse my applications so took my application to the Planning Committee, with the support of my local councillor, and won unanimously. Now that really did wind up the Head of Planning.

[SteamyTea]

15 hours ago, MDC said:

Can anyone point me to a simple text which explains how the rectangular build form is the most efficient form,

It isn't.

It may be better than other 'forms', but it is not the most thermally efficient.

You need to understand Mathematical Topology to realise that stretching, rotating, translating and twisting all affect the physical properties differently, often disproportionally. 

 

Is it part of the Planning Departments remit to deal with energy efficiency, or has that be palmed off to another department.

The problem with designing a low energy home is that the next owner may disregard the installed technology and design principles and fit a low efficiency heating system and tumble dry clothes, a sock at a time.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by SteamyTea

[MDC]

37 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

It isn't.

It may be better than other 'forms', but it is not the most thermally efficient.

You need to understand Mathematical Topology to realise that stretching, rotating, translating and twisting all affect the physical properties differently, often disproportionally. 

 

Is it part of the Planning Departments remit to deal with energy efficiency, or has that be palmed off to another department.

The problem with designing a low energy home is that the next owner may disregard the installed technology and design principles and fit a low efficiency heating system and tumble dry clothes, a sock at a time.

 

Fair point. I have made an assumption about the planning dept., and energy efficiency. 

[NSS]

14 hours ago, MDC said:

They have declared a climate emergency. Is that enough??

Declaring one is easy, and the vast majority of councils have. Doing something meaningful to address it is what they all seem to struggle with.

Edited February 5, 2023 by NSS

[joe90]

3 hours ago, MDC said:

This sounds like the planning officer had the job of upholding a policy they didn't necessarily believe in

Not really, she was adamant only bungalows were built in the area (although other two storied dwellings existed in the area), and it was not just one policy it was a few the appeal officer said she was not following!

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

The problem with designing a low energy home is that the next owner may disregard the installed technology and design principles and fit a low efficiency heating system and tumble dry clothes, a sock at a time.

However, if a house is orientated to max solar gain and filled with insulation (like mine) it does not matter what heating or temp it is set at it is still more efficient.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

The problem with designing a low energy home is that the next owner may disregard the installed technology and design principles and fit a low efficiency heating system and tumble dry clothes, a sock at a time.

However, if a house is orientated to max solar gain and filled with insulation (like mine) it does not matter what heating or temp it is set at it is still more efficient.

Really down to what you compare it against.

With no official figures for energy usage, i.e. 5W/m².person or whatever, it is impossible to separate fact from fiction.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Really down to what you compare it against.

A house that is not orientated to max solar gain and not filled with insulation 🤷‍♂️

 

I didn’t use any figures I just said “more efficient”

[NSS]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

A house that is not orientated to max solar gain and not filled with insulation 🤷‍♂️

 

I didn’t use any figures I just said “more efficient”

Don't worry Joe, we don't all need reams of data and supercomputer levels of analysis to agree something works.

 

When I did my apprenticeship, mechanical engineering types boasted that they worked to thousandths of an inch accuracy. Shipwrights like I on the other hand worked on the assumption that...

 

i) so long as we were on the right ship, and

ii) it took no more than six whacks with a 7-pound maul (like a sledgehammer but with a pointy bit in one end), then job was a good'un 😄

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, NSS said:

Shipwrights like I on the other hand worked on the assumption that...

 

i) so long as we were on the right ship, and

ii) it took no more than six whacks with a 7-pound maul (like a sledgehammer but with a pointy bit in one end), then job was a good'un

And our shipbuilding industry is still a global leader.

[NSS]

7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

And our shipbuilding industry is still a global leader.

No, at least not for commercial ships, but that's because (like just about anything else that's manufactured) we can't compete on price.

 

 

[markc]

27 minutes ago, NSS said:

Don't worry Joe, we don't all need reams of data and supercomputer levels of analysis to agree something works.

 

When I did my apprenticeship, mechanical engineering types boasted that they worked to thousandths of an inch accuracy. Shipwrights like I on the other hand worked on the assumption that...

 

i) so long as we were on the right ship, and

ii) it took no more than six whacks with a 7-pound maul (like a sledgehammer but with a pointy bit in one end), then job was a good'un 😄

Mate of mine got sacked for being 2 thou out … banks work to ridiculous tolerances.

Edited February 5, 2023 by markc