ProDave Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 A problem we have at the moment is just about every heat pump has a TOTALLY different way of connecting to the required controls and by default only operates from it's own supplied controller which tends to be a non intuitive grossly over complicated and awkward thing to use, such that the average home owner has no hope of even adjusting the time settings. In my own case I left the manufacturers controller as an object of curiosity in the plant room and integrated the system to a standard central heating programmer on the wall of the utility room. A user interface that most home owners are familliar with and they can easily turn heating and hot water on and off and program on and off times just as they have always been able to do with any heating system. But to do that was not easy as there was no hard wired hot water on and off input with my heat pump, so I had to fudge my own interface to allow the hot water to be enabled or disabled by something else. And the wiring is totally different between one make of heat pump and another. So an electrician going to wire the system if he has not done that one before he first has to read, digest and understand the manual. Only then can he work out what cable is needed between the inside and the heat pump sitting outside. You don't have this problem with a gas or oil boiler, they are virtually all the same control interface, permanent supply, call for heat, call for hot water etc. It would be good if the heat pump manufacturers could bang their heads together and come up with at least some standardisation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 12 hours ago, joth said: The problem is that heating system design work appears to require trudging about in mud and rain on a building site. My architect, structural engineer, lighting designer and MVHR designer some how all sat in comfy warm offices and did a perfectly good job. But my ASHP heating engineer, despite having the exact schematic I wanted supplied to him by the manufacturer *and* by me in my tender pack, still turned up with a bag of different parts, spent a while trying to convince me the design in his head was better than what they tendered, struggled to even read a plumbing schematic, didn't have couplers for the parts being installed, installed some parts upside down and other things like pumps in completely the wrong place, installed a mid position valve rather than 2 zone valves, required 6 returns to site to debug it all into working, etc etc etc the list goes on. So for me the issue is not that the installer wasn't smart enough to do the design: I'd already paid the smart people to do the design. The issue is that the installer is attempting to be smarter than they really are by doing redesign work on the hoof rather than meticulously follow the design given to them. It's like a builder deciding to alter foundation depths and move some supporting beams or change insulation thickness on the fly. Bad practices that used to be the norm but are being slowly pushed out the industry. My hunch is the scalable central design will only be financially viable if coupled with a monitoring and maintenance contract, probably with capital outlay financing rolled in. It's not impossible, but will take some major players to make it happen. Octopus are closest now, but BG HomeCare + Hive surely has to be planning how to pivot into this Im impressed that your architect, structural engineer, lighting designer and MVHR designer got it spot on. Are you sure thats what really happened? Given the critsism levelled at architects on here, you did well. Designers designing stuff that cant actually be assembled or built is not new. But nonetheless, your heating guy sounds a bit hopeless. Did having a designer and installer not linked to each other not concern you? Lets assume he did it as per spec. Who do you turn to when it doesnt work as planned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Roger440 said: Im impressed that your architect, structural engineer, lighting designer and MVHR designer got it spot on. Are you sure thats what really happened? Given the critsism levelled at architects on here, you did well. Designers designing stuff that cant actually be assembled or built is not new. But nonetheless, your heating guy sounds a bit hopeless. Did having a designer and installer not linked to each other not concern you? Lets assume he did it as per spec. Who do you turn to when it doesnt work as planned? Exactly, this is the problem Edited January 21, 2023 by joth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 On 20/01/2023 at 11:12, Drellingore said: there's no decent book on the subject Gap in the market I guess but be aware that books are static things and in our world of technological chaos and complexity they struggle to be relevant at the bleeding edge for any great period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 On 20/01/2023 at 14:24, Kelvin said: re-train their people. What people? On 20/01/2023 at 16:46, Roger440 said: The majority of those smart enough to deal with the complexities are not going to be found on building sites in all weathers. Its just not going happen. What am I doing down here in -2DegC then, perhaps I am not smart enough or not in the majority, or just stupid On 20/01/2023 at 16:58, Roger440 said: With different system interfacing with each other, a change of software on one has the potential to stop the whole show. 5 years after it was installed, imagine trying to unravel that. Systems of systems have probably the biggest bear traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 1 hour ago, MikeSharp01 said: What am I doing down here in -2DegC then, perhaps I am not smart enough or not in the majority, or just stupid Or a masochist? 😜 Actually -2 can be quite pleasant with a bit of sunshine, and no wind. Just no good for doing any wet work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 On 20/01/2023 at 14:24, Kelvin said: Heating engineers that understand ASHP/UFH are in short supply though. The people we sold our house to 18 months ago have a fault with the heating. They managed to get one guy out three months ago. He seems to have made it worse and swapped a number of unnecessary parts and they can’t get anyone else. Three of their neighbours also have problems with their systems (all identical) and can’t get anyone out. We are going to struggle to mass adopt ASHPs if the industry can’t pick up the pace and re-train their people. What area? I've started giving work to a 3 strong gang for my ASHP installs, great guys tbh ( a refreshing change to the usual 'plug'n'play only' pipe jockeys I've come across over the last 4 years or so ). PM me if you are still struggling, and I'll connect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 On 20/01/2023 at 10:45, jack said: ask him to get some shots next time he has it out in the garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 39 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: What area? I've started giving work to a 3 strong gang for my ASHP installs, great guys tbh ( a refreshing change to the usual 'plug'n'play only' pipe jockeys I've come across over the last 4 years or so ). PM me if you are still struggling, and I'll connect you. It’s Gamlingay near the Cambs/Beds border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 On 20/01/2023 at 11:12, Drellingore said: Nah, not really. It's an emotional starting point. We don't want to be off-grid, but we'd like to not need it. We've got a 3 acre field next door to try and provide as much permaculture food security too. Part of the rationale is to do my best to leave something to the kids and descendants that will be a 'safety net' of sorts - so they don't need to pay for rent, electricity, very basic foods, etcetera. Yep. I'm just at the start of figuring everything out, but I was figuring a few powerwalls or equivalents. Annoyingly we've got 112kWh of storage in the two cars, but neither does V2H It's a 22m long barn with a south-facing roof - that's also ignoring the other building, which is on a north/south alignment. Yeah, there's already a three phase supply to the property. I'll need to figure out what goes on what phases, and all that jazz. I'm just at the beginning, really. Yeah, we might have to register as a power plant (I can't remember what the technical term is). It's something we'll need to think about, for sure. Agreed. Asking on a Tesla forum, others have done similarly complex systems, and unfortunately there's no decent book on the subject. You could hybrid this and put 100kWh of batteries and 100kWp of solar, as it would all be on the DC side and 'invisible' to the grid. They's only care about the size of the inverters and what they have been set to discharge into the grid. That can all be set to zero export via the export limitation software. With 3ph, you can simply set each inverter to allow 3.5kW export and get the SEG ( using all registered / approved equipment of course ). Register as nothing, they can mind their own business. I'd split between the 3 roof elevations, covering East, South, and West which will give a very long 'solar day'. I'd not put a massive system all due South as it's a lot to consume in a shorter period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 5 minutes ago, Kelvin said: It’s Gamlingay near the Cambs/Beds border. Currently engaged in Amersham and Ipswich, so defo an area they'll cover. Let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) Cool. Very kind. I’ll contact my friends and see how they’re getting on with their heating. Edited January 22, 2023 by Kelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Radian said: Actually -2 can be quite pleasant Is it (expletive deleted). On the drive up was listening to the weather forecast, outskirts of Oxford was -10⁰C last night. Was 6⁰C when I left home this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 8 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Is it (expletive deleted). On the drive up was listening to the weather forecast, outskirts of Oxford was -10⁰C last night. Was 6⁰C when I left home this morning. There was a reason i wanted to move to the west country................................ We had -12 in bucks the other week. Sadly, not to be. Still another holiday in helford beckons. Mildest climate in the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Roger440 said: We had -12 in bucks the other week. Was not so bad in Aylesbury, ice warning light went off. 5 minutes ago, Roger440 said: holiday in helford I used to live 'down the Lizard', have they got mobile phone coverage yet? My current temperature 22/01/2023 21:01:37, 5.625°C Edited January 22, 2023 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Was not so bad in Aylesbury, ice warning light went off. I used to live 'down the Lizard', have they got mobile phone coverage yet? My current temperature 22/01/2023 21:01:37, 5.625°C Not when i was there last year. -1 here in bucks already. 3 degrees at the new place in Wales. Affordable compromise i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 4 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Affordable compromise i guess Camper van is even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 1 minute ago, SteamyTea said: Camper van is even better. Cant store all my cars in it though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Cant store all my cars in it though! ASM will take them off your hands, and give you a couple of quid for them. Edited January 22, 2023 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 13 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said: What am I doing down here in -2DegC then, perhaps I am not smart enough or not in the majority, or just stupid I cant answer that question. Only you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: ASM will take them off your hands, and give you a couple of quid for them. Sure they would. On a serious note i considered binning all my space consuming hobbies thus opening up my options on houses. Couldnt bring myself to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 1 minute ago, Roger440 said: binning all my space consuming hobbies thus opening up my options on houses. I moved all my possessions down in two trip in an old Corsa. That included my very long ladder, which I got rid of the other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 37 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: My current temperature 22/01/2023 21:01:37, 5.625°C -1.5 here ⛸️ Unusual pattern just now with air coming off the English Channel from the North East and flicking up to the Southern counties. Down your way it's coming up from the Atlantic almost due South. 10oC difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) Black line is roughly what I have driven today, both ways. So off to bed, I need to sleep on the cans of Blue Sparkle. Edited January 22, 2023 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 Just now, SteamyTea said: Black line is roughly what I have driven today, both ways. If only you could have powered the trip with the temperature gradient between the two ends. 🙃 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now