Flooded basement....need reliable pump recommendations and high water alarm

[Thorfun]

14 minutes ago, pocster said:

Perhaps when it’s dark stick a torch outside so you can see the light coming under the dpc . Foam along until no light visible . You’ve then done the best as possible .

it's a great idea except the gap is below the level of the screed internally. but i will just put some of the good foam under there.

 

i've got the Shelley flood sensor working now so i think i can rest a bit easier until i have my final pump solution in place

[Thorfun]

I've been talking to a pump supplier who originally recommended pumps with a 2" outlet. once I pointed out that my pipe going out from the sump is 32mm he said, oh dear, and said that was quite restrictive.

 

he has recommended a 1 1/4" outlet pump but thinks I'll only get about 50l/min at the required head height we have. I'm sure that'll be enough as the current temporary pump (https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb844pmp-750w-mains-powered-dirty-water-pump/495xf#product_additional_details_container) is also only a 1 1/4" outlet and is coping fine.

 

if only someone had told me that 32mm pipe wouldn't be enough (or could cause restrictive flow I should say) when we had this designed I'd have specced up a 50mm outlet pipe. 😞 

 

yet another lesson learned too late as I can't replace the existing pipe as it's going through the concrete and is buried under tonnes of backfill/soil/concrete! 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Thorfun
slight correction of wording

[Pocster]

39 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I've been talking to a pump supplier who originally recommended pumps with a 2" outlet. once I pointed out that my pipe going out from the sump is 32mm he said, oh dear, and said that was quite restrictive.

 

he has recommended a 1 1/4" outlet pump but thinks I'll only get about 50l/min at the required head height we have. I'm sure that'll be enough as the current temporary pump (https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb844pmp-750w-mains-powered-dirty-water-pump/495xf#product_additional_details_container) is also only a 1 1/4" outlet and is coping fine.

 

if only someone had told me that 32mm pipe wouldn't be enough (or could cause restrictive flow I should say) when we had this designed I'd have specced up a 50mm outlet pipe. 😞 

 

yet another lesson learned too late as I can't replace the existing pipe as it's going through the concrete and is buried under tonnes of backfill/soil/concrete! 

I have 32mm mdpe for my 2 rain water pumps - no issues .

My sump ( macerator waste and kitchen ) does indeed have 2” pipe outlets .

Regarding your current embedded 32mm pipe . Can you not put a new pipe externally in your sunken garden ( box it in afterwards ) and then access the drain ( access chamber nearby ?? ) . Like I did …

[saveasteading]

53 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

can't replace the existing pipe as it's going through the concrete

Changing some of it would help. Although the restriction would still be there, the turbulence and resistance elsewhere  would reduce. Also ensuring slow and smooth bends helps a lot whatever the size.

[Pocster]

F me - it’s hissing down here . 
I’m watching my rainwater pump ( from inside the build ) just for peace of mind !!!

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Changing some of it would help. Although the restriction would still be there, the turbulence and resistance elsewhere  would reduce. Also ensuring slow and smooth bends helps a lot whatever the size.

that's the thing, the 32mm pipe is very gentle bends with no joins directly from the sump to an inspection chamber where it feeds in to our RWH tank. so I'm not worried about that side of things. tbh, I'm not really worried about just using a 32mm pipe!

 

1 hour ago, pocster said:

I have 32mm mdpe for my 2 rain water pumps - no issues .

My sump ( macerator waste and kitchen ) does indeed have 2” pipe outlets .

Regarding your current embedded 32mm pipe . Can you not put a new pipe externally in your sunken garden ( box it in afterwards ) and then access the drain ( access chamber nearby ?? ) . Like I did …

 

yeah, I guess I could do something like this. I am going to put paving slabs and an ACO down in the courtyard so I could have space for a 50mm pipe that then is run up the wall but it's a bit of a bodge and we'll have to box in and make good which will cost more money whereas we really simply want to paint the concrete walls!

[Pocster]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the wall but it's a bit of a bodge and we'll have to box in and make good which will cost more money whereas we really simply want to paint the concrete walls!

Nah it's not a bodge - it's an after thought.

Look at my photo. I always intended to box the pipes in. Bit of timber, tile backerboard and a few tiles - its disappeared ( or will when I finish it ).

 

Personally I can't see the 32mm pipe being an issue. Restricts flow for sure - but so what?. It's in your ground depression ( cast concrete ); fills up then empties. It's not going to attract so much water that your pump outlet of 32mm can't cope.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Nah it's not a bodge - it's an after thought.

Look at my photo. I always intended to box the pipes in. Bit of timber, tile backerboard and a few tiles - its disappeared ( or will when I finish it ).

 

will run it by SWMBO and see what she says

 

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Personally I can't see the 32mm pipe being an issue. Restricts flow for sure - but so what?. It's in your ground depression ( cast concrete ); fills up then empties. It's not going to attract so much water that your pump outlet of 32mm can't cope.

exactly!

[Thorfun]

On 17/11/2022 at 20:20, pocster said:

To add

 

My rainwater Zoellar pumps are at 2 different heights in a pit I.e lower than my basement floor .

I have a HA sensor on the higher one - that informs me if it comes on .

As it’s higher it should *never* come on as the lower one should trigger first .

So if it gets activated I know the primary pump has an issue .

 

You need a proper approach to this - with multiple fail safes .

hey @pocster. qq. what HA sensor do you use on the higher pump? I'm leaning towards having built in floats on the pumps now (due to potential lack of space in the sump for 4 floats) and a separate alarm float/box. but I'd like a way to monitor if a pump is running so need a way to trigger that into my Loxone system. 

 

I was thinking a CT clamp on the power cable? but I'm sure there has to be a more elegant way!

[Pocster]

6 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

hey @pocster. qq. what HA sensor do you use on the higher pump? I'm leaning towards having built in floats on the pumps now (due to potential lack of space in the sump for 4 floats) and a separate alarm float/box. but I'd like a way to monitor if a pump is running so need a way to trigger that into my Loxone system. 

 

I was thinking a CT clamp on the power cable? but I'm sure there has to be a more elegant way!

Many solutions to this ; but what I do …

 

homeseer HA - largely agnostic to type of devices e.g z wave , x 10 🤣 , zingbee etc 

I have a z wave socket on that pump . I can measure its wattage use . So my ‘last hope’ pump should never be on . If that plug wattage goes above zero pump must be on - I then send an email or whatever .

[Pocster]

2 minutes ago, pocster said:

leaning towards having built in floats on the pumps

Not sure what you mean here ?

You do not want those loose floats ; on a cable that bounce around !!

Tried many pumps - float sticking / jamming was a common issue . Zoellar. Is your friend ! 

[Thorfun]

10 minutes ago, pocster said:

Many solutions to this ; but what I do …

 

homeseer HA - largely agnostic to type of devices e.g z wave , x 10 🤣 , zingbee etc 

I have a z wave socket on that pump . I can measure its wattage use . So my ‘last hope’ pump should never be on . If that plug wattage goes above zero pump must be on - I then send an email or whatever .

thanks. I get it now. for me it'll probably be a CT clamp of some kind then as my pumps will be hard wired to a CU.

 

7 minutes ago, pocster said:

Not sure what you mean here ?

You do not want those loose floats ; on a cable that bounce around !!

Tried many pumps - float sticking / jamming was a common issue . Zoellar. Is your friend ! 

yeah, I was going to go with the loose floats with a control panel but one chap said there's not enough room in my sump and they could get tangled up! obviously something I want to avoid. so I'm going for pumps with floats attached. then I'll have a single loose float attached to an alarm panel (https://www.pumpsukltd.com/puk-alarm-box.html) that has an connection for an external trigger that can feed into my Loxone system.

 

I looked at the Zoellar pumps but I couldn't see one with a 1 1/4" discharge outlet so I've gone with Ebara instead. Neither of us want to run a separate 2" outlet pipe hidden below the patio and behind a studded wall so I needed a 1 1/4" pump. I'm confident they will do the job and the flow rate at our static head level is good and with the redundancies and monitoring I'll build in I'm very confident I can be flood free.

 

I guess only time will tell if I've made the correct decision!

[Pocster]

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

thanks. I get it now. for me it'll probably be a CT clamp of some kind then as my pumps will be hard wired to a CU.

 

yeah, I was going to go with the loose floats with a control panel but one chap said there's not enough room in my sump and they could get tangled up! obviously something I want to avoid. so I'm going for pumps with floats attached. then I'll have a single loose float attached to an alarm panel (https://www.pumpsukltd.com/puk-alarm-box.html) that has an connection for an external trigger that can feed into my Loxone system.

 

I looked at the Zoellar pumps but I couldn't see one with a 1 1/4" discharge outlet so I've gone with Ebara instead. Neither of us want to run a separate 2" outlet pipe hidden below the patio and behind a studded wall so I needed a 1 1/4" pump. I'm confident they will do the job and the flow rate at our static head level is good and with the redundancies and monitoring I'll build in I'm very confident I can be flood free.

 

I guess only time will tell if I've made the correct decision!

Got a link to that pump ??

[Thorfun]

55 minutes ago, pocster said:

Got a link to that pump ??

https://www.pumpsukltd.com/ebara-best-one-m-a.html

[Pocster]

When my build was just a concrete hole in the ground ( I’d already run out of money 🤣 ) I decided to try different pumps .
 

The problems I experienced with different pumps were 

 

Those loose cabled floats can indeed tangle or jam against the side .

 

Had one of loose floats not jam - water level had raised it but not triggering the pump . Gave the ‘float’ a tap and it started working ! . So the ball / micro switch must of jammed . I wasn’t impressed 

 

Pumps with a float in a chamber on the side . Again like a ping pong ball that just rises or falls . Bit of sand / crap in the water it jammed .

 

So I wanted a pump with a float that can move only vertically - but is free ; not contained .

Also a float that cannot be caught on the sides .

 

Went through about 6 different pumps before I came to this conclusion ( got my money back on all of them after arguing “ not fit for purpose “ ).

 

Decided to look at USA ; they have more basements etc. than us . Every video had a Zoellar in it ( it’s made in the US so perhaps that’s why ) .

Anyway , it’s cast iron . Hit SWMBO with it , it will kill her - so added benefits .

 

Regarding your hole being too small ( oo’er ) you could always break it wider ?

Edited November 25, 2022 by pocster

[Pocster]

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

https://www.pumpsukltd.com/ebara-best-one-m-a.html

Imho nope - floaty float might ‘jam ‘ or as i experienced the actual ball/switch inside the float decides it might stick .

It’s not the brand I’m against it’s the ‘float’ method .

Obviously you could get it . But get 2 and make sure there is zero chance of either float in motion buggering the other .

Edited November 25, 2022 by pocster

[Tom]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but you could try an optical sensor, something like this https://paraquatics.co.uk/product/tunze-osmolator-5017-replacement-optical-sensor/

I used exactly this for an auto top-up for a reef aquarium. Worked faultlessly - though would obviously trigger the pump when the level fell too low - but sure it could be reversed so as to trigger an alarm or similar if it sensed water. Worth thinking about as a back-up.

[Thorfun]

14 minutes ago, pocster said:

When my build was just a concrete hole in the ground ( I’d already run out of money 🤣 ) I decided to try different pumps .
 

The problems I experienced with different pumps were 

 

Those loose cabled floats can indeed tangle or jam against the side .

 

Had one of loose floats not jam - water level had raised it but not triggering the pump . Gave the ‘float’ a tap and it started working ! . So the ball / micro switch must of jammed . I wasn’t impressed 

 

Pumps with a float in a chamber on the side . Again like a ping pong ball that just rises or falls . Bit of sand / crap in the water it jammed .

 

So I wanted a pump with a float that can move only vertically - but is free ; not contained .

Also a float that cannot be caught on the sides .

 

Went through about 6 different pumps before I came to this conclusion ( got my money back on all of them after arguing “ not fit for purpose “ ).

 

Decided to look at USA ; they have more basements etc. than us . Every video had a Zoellar in it ( it’s made in the US so perhaps that’s why ) .

Anyway , it’s cast iron . Hit SWMBO with it , it will kill her - so added benefits .

 

Regarding your hole being too small ( oo’er ) you could always break it wider ?

that's some good research! and if the Ebara pumps don't work out then i'll revisit the Zoellar pumps.

 

can't break the hole wider. it's fine as is.

 

12 minutes ago, pocster said:

Imho nope - floaty float might ‘jam ‘ or as i experienced the actual ball/switch inside the float decides it might stick .

It’s not the brand I’m against it’s the ‘float’ method .

Obviously you could get it . But get 2 and make sure there is zero chance of either float in motion buggering the other .

 

message understood. both pumps will be at different levels and floats will not be near/facing the other pump so free movement should be possible.

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but you could try an optical sensor, something like this https://paraquatics.co.uk/product/tunze-osmolator-5017-replacement-optical-sensor/

I used exactly this for an auto top-up for a reef aquarium. Worked faultlessly - though would obviously trigger the pump when the level fell too low - but sure it could be reversed so as to trigger an alarm or similar if it sensed water. Worth thinking about as a back-up.

thanks. something else to add to the list of things to investigate! 🙂

[Pocster]

10 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

can't break the hole wider. it's fine as is.

Lazy ! 🤣🤣🤣👍

[Thorfun]

afternoon all. I've finally got my dual pump system up and running.

 

 

the new pumps are really good and clear the water very quickly. one is 200mm higher than the other so if that one ever kicks in we know there's an issue and I will eventually get alerted if that happens. thanks to @pocster for that suggestion.

 

I've also got a separate float that will go to an external alarm that also has a trigger that will feed the HA system as a last line of notification if both pumps have failed. that will go in at some point soon but I need the electrician to come over and wire all this up properly as it's just on 13A plugs for now.

 

still got the Shelley flood sensor on the floor of the courtyard so if the sump does overflow that will alert me.

 

feeling a LOT better about the risk of flooding occurring again now.

 

Basement is free of water now as well. we've got a hired dehumidifier running and a 2kW convection heater going to try and get some heat down there. it's 'kind of' working but I'm now speaking to companies to bring forward our ASHP/UVC install so we can get the UFH going in the basement to help dry it out. thanks also to @Nickfromwales for his advice and effort in assisting. I'm just waiting to hear back from the second company with their quote and timelines before I make a decision between the 2 companies.

 

Sadly, though, this has had an impact on the schedule for our house build. all the stuff we were storing in the basement is now in the house above ground so we can't really do any work as there are boxes and things all over the place drying out. hopefully we can get the basement fully dry again soon so we can put that stuff back down there and get on with working on the build.

 

no one ever said self-building was easy!

[Roundtuit]

Looks like a good set up.  I did a similar thing, but a bit of a bodge job, in our last place.  I set the alarm to come on if pump 1 failed, but before water reached pump 2 level.  I also discovered there was a problem with the pumps getting air-locked and failing to pump after the sump had run dry over summer.  I ended up drilling some holes in the pipework to let water into the pumps from the top.  I think I also had to put some one way valves in to stop water being returned through whichever pump wasn't running.

[Thorfun]

31 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

Looks like a good set up.  I did a similar thing, but a bit of a bodge job, in our last place.  I set the alarm to come on if pump 1 failed, but before water reached pump 2 level.  I also discovered there was a problem with the pumps getting air-locked and failing to pump after the sump had run dry over summer.  I ended up drilling some holes in the pipework to let water into the pumps from the top.  I think I also had to put some one way valves in to stop water being returned through whichever pump wasn't running.

thanks. each pump has an NRV on it. there's no chance of water never being in there! even during the drought last summer there was still a trickle of water coming in. 

 

I'm tempted to put a monitor on the 1st pump to record when it runs and for how long to keep some form of stats and so I can see if it is running or when it last ran etc. but that's a very nice to have and can wait.

[Pocster]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

Sadly, though, this has had an impact on the schedule

Don’t worry about it . A year or 2 or 3 … late ; no worries 😎

[Paene Finitur]

Just picked up on this. What an ordeal @Thorfun. My sympathies go out to you. I had a similar issue with two or three floods in a full tanked basement early this year, once because the float got caught on the cable and twice because workman accidentally switched  the power off. Luckily, I had nothing down there but the screed took months to fully dry out and I made the mistake of running some 2K heater/blowers down there which cost me a further £1K in electric!

 

I tanked the entire basement using Delta membrane and a cementitious layer although the project manager persuaded me that Sika was not necessary - another decision I regret, as the water rate into the sumps is pretty aggressive. I have two sumps with two ground water and one with a single foul and they seem to be coping with it quite well.

 

On timing it around February time, I found that I had 35 minutes from the pump disengaging to the sump reaching flood levels! Because of this, I got the Delta AlertMaxx EG High level water alarm & monitoring system and Delta Hi-power Maxx2 Battery back-up, which should give me a day or so, should we be out of power. All the kit is, I believe, manufactured by https://www.ppspumps.com/ I believe that the AlertMaxx can switch the primary pump on a regular basis which I prefer to the idea of just setting the float slightly higher on the second pump - I worry that an unused pump will sieze through lack of use (limescale?) and fail when needed most.

 

I think I got stiffed on the price. The products are good but they are not cheap, and now PPS are proposing charging me £280+VAT for commissioning and a further £300+ every six months for service, or the option of £42 per month, which covers remote monitoring, but doesn't cover replacements if one of the pumps needs replaced.

 

Wondered what others thought about ongoing service plans? Seem a bit of a rip off, but then again, what's the alternative?