Flooded basement....need reliable pump recommendations and high water alarm

[Pocster]

37 minutes ago, Paene Finitur said:

Wondered what others thought about ongoing service plans? Seem a bit of a rip off, but then again, what's the alternative?

Definitely a rip off in my opinion .

Every 12 months I just pull all pumps floats up to make sure they work . Clear any debris around the pump and float . Also have a spare pump for those “ just in case “ moments .

Been doing that on my rainwater pumps for around 4 yrs - all good .

[Thorfun]

45 minutes ago, Paene Finitur said:

Just picked up on this. What an ordeal @Thorfun. My sympathies go out to you. I had a similar issue with two or three floods in a full tanked basement early this year, once because the float got caught on the cable and twice because workman accidentally switched  the power off. Luckily, I had nothing down there but the screed took months to fully dry out and I made the mistake of running some 2K heater/blowers down there which cost me a further £1K in electric!

 

I tanked the entire basement using Delta membrane and a cementitious layer although the project manager persuaded me that Sika was not necessary - another decision I regret, as the water rate into the sumps is pretty aggressive. I have two sumps with two ground water and one with a single foul and they seem to be coping with it quite well.

 

On timing it around February time, I found that I had 35 minutes from the pump disengaging to the sump reaching flood levels! Because of this, I got the Delta AlertMaxx EG High level water alarm & monitoring system and Delta Hi-power Maxx2 Battery back-up, which should give me a day or so, should we be out of power. All the kit is, I believe, manufactured by https://www.ppspumps.com/ I believe that the AlertMaxx can switch the primary pump on a regular basis which I prefer to the idea of just setting the float slightly higher on the second pump - I worry that an unused pump will sieze through lack of use (limescale?) and fail when needed most.

 

I think I got stiffed on the price. The products are good but they are not cheap, and now PPS are proposing charging me £280+VAT for commissioning and a further £300+ every six months for service, or the option of £42 per month, which covers remote monitoring, but doesn't cover replacements if one of the pumps needs replaced.

 

Wondered what others thought about ongoing service plans? Seem a bit of a rip off, but then again, what's the alternative?

thanks. sorry to hear about your problems too! I'll take a look at their alarms but I have a high water alarm, plus a Shelley flood detector, plus I plan on (as per @pocster's recommendation) notifying my HA system when the second pump is running as that would indicate an issue with the first pump. I'm very confident that my new solution will do the job and will check the pumps annually (if not more regularly) like @pocster suggests. fortunately for us I guess, the basement probably won't be finished for another couple of years so I have that period of time to test the new solution. 😉 

[Pocster]

22 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

won't be finished for 7 years

I know .

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Paene Finitur said:

ongoing service plans?

Ask what they do for this?

I suspect they pour in a bucket of water and see if it works, check for rubble or blockages, and the float height. Which you can do.

On very fancy big pumps they might do some maintenance, but yours is probably sealed.

[Paene Finitur]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Ask what they do for this?

Indeed. I will check but the thing that attracted me about it was that they monitor it remotely and, if the alarm goes off, they can attend the property and sort out the problem. I'd have to check whether that's really included but it's a bit of piece of mind if we go away. Other than that, yes, I can't see any great advantage to just doing it myself. I'm hoping that the AlertMaxx can connect to an app so that I can monitor it directly myself.

[TonyT]

Peace of mind

ability to let ‘experts’ deal with the situation, use the van full of spares to get you up and running.

as you get older you probably become more risk averse.

 

 

[Thorfun]

greetings all. i managed to find someone to install my ASHP and it is now up and running. all that's plumbed in at the moment is the UFH in the basement. i've started it out at a flow temp of 20°C and the plan was to ramp it up by 5°C every week to aid in the drying out.

 

The screed was laid Feb 2022 so it's been down for quite a while now.

 

my question to you all is "Is it still necessary to do a gradual drying out regime?". Factors to consider are that the flood water would've got under the screed and in to the PIR i would presume. Also, i would presume that the concrete screed also absorbed quite a bit of water. would that absorbed water increase the risk of cracking the screed even this far down the line from laying? can i bump up the flow temperature more rapidly?

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

gradual drying out regime?".

The reason for slow drying of screed is that the water is essential to hardening and avoiding shrinkage cracking. After a month in damp confitions the chemical reactions are complete. The temperatures of ufh 

shouldn't be a problem. Evaporation will reduce the slab temperature, so don't expect it to feel warm. You might need lots of ventilation.

[Thorfun]

5 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The reason for slow drying of screed is that the water is essential to hardening and avoiding shrinkage cracking. After a month in damp confitions the chemical reactions are complete. The temperatures of ufh 

shouldn't be a problem. Evaporation will reduce the slab temperature, so don't expect it to feel warm. You might need lots of ventilation.

ok thanks. so i can crank up the temperature a bit more than 20°C. The house isn't airtight yet so ventilation shouldn't be an issue, plus we will be running dehumidifiers to assist in removing the moisture in the air as it evaporates.

[saveasteading]

Please report how it goes. If you aren't airtight yet, the draught should be doing a fair amont of the drying for you already.

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Please report how it goes. If you aren't airtight yet, the draught should be doing a fair amont of the drying for you already.

yeah. it is getting there. we can still see the tide mark but it's just darn cold down there although it was hovering around the 9°C - 10°C mark constantly even during the cold snap we've just had so it's not all bad! but with some heat down there now the damp will evaporate and the warmer air will hold more of the moisture and the dehumidifiers will be more efficient.

 

i'm keen to get it all dried out so we can put our stuff back down there and carry on with first fix. we can't really do much at the moment as the ground floor and first floor are full of boxes and stuff lying around waiting to be put back in to storage.

[Thorfun]

i've set the flow temp to 30°C for now. will see in the morning what temperature the basement is at! 🙂

[PeterW]

5 hours ago, Thorfun said:

The house isn't airtight yet so ventilation shouldn't be an issue, plus we will be running dehumidifiers to assist in removing the moisture in the air as it evaporates.

Seal up where you are running the UFH and dehumidifiers as otherwise you’re just trying to drain the world of moisture. We used to use a sheet of PIR propped tight against a door frame when drying out rooms as it keeps the heat in and the room drys quicker. 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Seal up where you are running the UFH and dehumidifiers as otherwise you’re just trying to drain the world of moisture. We used to use a sheet of PIR propped tight against a door frame when drying out rooms as it keeps the heat in and the room drys quicker. 

I’ve done that before as well. It is a very good reminder for me to do it again! Thank you. 

[Paene Finitur]

On 23/12/2022 at 16:34, Thorfun said:

i've set the flow temp to 30°C for now. will see in the morning what temperature the basement is at! 🙂

Watch your electric bill. I've been astonished at how much my ASHP is using. Also, I was advised against using heat to dry the screed; not because it would cause any problems but mainly because I was told good ventilation and a commercial dehumidifier would be much more cost effective.

 

[Thorfun]

28 minutes ago, Paene Finitur said:

Watch your electric bill. I've been astonished at how much my ASHP is using. Also, I was advised against using heat to dry the screed; not because it would cause any problems but mainly because I was told good ventilation and a commercial dehumidifier would be much more cost effective.

 

£7 in the first 24hrs according to the Melcloud app and it's running 24/7. 20kWh input and approx 100kWh output. so first day was a COP of 5 which I'm very happy with.

 

 

and last time I went to check the basement was up to 15.6°C so it's getting to the point where a commercial dehumidifier would start to make sense. but, for now, we have a couple of smaller dehumidifiers that are doing a job.

[Pocster]

Shhhhhh , santas coming soon . You (expletive deleted) wits need to be in bed 

[Thorfun]

8 minutes ago, pocster said:

Shhhhhh , santas coming soon . You (expletive deleted) wits need to be in bed 

don't worry. he told me you're on the naughty list.

[Pocster]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

don't worry. he told me you're on the naughty list.

That means I get a spanking 

[saveasteading]

20 hours ago, Paene Finitur said:

good ventilation 

This is free and very effective. You don't get a bucket of water to empty so the benefit is invisible....hence I think dehumidifiers are often used too early and too much.

Of course if groundworkers didn't add water to the slab mix....

[Paene Finitur]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

This is free and very effective. You don't get a bucket of water to empty so the benefit is invisible....hence I think dehumidifiers are often used too early and too much.

Of course if groundworkers didn't add water to the slab mix....

Yeah, in my case the basement is entirely underground and the floods happened before any mechanical ventilation was fitted. I tried all sorts, even walking up and down trying to dry the slab with a propane torch. All I got was a bill for gas and headaches from the CO fumes! My feeling is that heat won't generally work, or at least external heat - switching the UFH on might well be far more effective. But fans were very the most effective thing; getting the air moving.

[saveasteading]

On 25/12/2022 at 22:06, Paene Finitur said:

getting the air moving

Yes. And heating with bottled gas is a problem too, because water is created as a byproduct.

I have often found that nothing much seems to be happening, for a week or more. Then suddenly the slab is  dry. Presumably this is due to water being drawn to the surface  until it isn't. 

[Thorfun]

On 24/11/2022 at 14:44, pocster said:

Personally I can't see the 32mm pipe being an issue. Restricts flow for sure - but so what?. It's in your ground depression ( cast concrete ); fills up then empties. It's not going to attract so much water that your pump outlet of 32mm can't cope.

I've been (obviously as I'm really paranoid now!) monitoring our sump during the recent periods of heavy rain and there's been a couple of times I've noticed that the sump has started to fill up with one time it being about 100mm from the top of the sump (and our sump is about 1500mm deep!). so something isn't working correctly with the current setup. when it's not raining or not raining hard then it's all working perfectly but in heavy rain the amount of water coming out of the land drain in to the sump is quite a lot! so I'm thinking that maybe the 32mm pipe isn't big enough to cope. even though it eventually catches up as the rain eases I'm worried that if we have a prolonged period of heavy rain then the sump will overflow.

 

As such, I've decided to run a separate 50mm pipe and try and hide it somewhere. this has led to a few questions!

 

1. we currently have a 225mm step down from the basement sliders to the courtyard. if I were to run a 50mm pipe across the courtyard and cover it in concrete that will reduce the 175mm. and then with paving slabs it'll be 150mm. is a 150mm step down within building regulations?

 

2. iirc we have somewhere around 25mm cover over the rebar in the courtyard slab so I could, in theory, channel out some of the concrete to lower the 50mm pipe into the slab a bit. what would the minimum amount of cover I could leave be?

 

3. what would the best pipe be for the 50mm pipe? it will need to be buried underground.

 

I also think that, in the winter, there's too much water to run the sump output to the RWH tank. the RWH tank is just overflowing. I know we're not using the house at the moment but even with using RWH for toilets and washing machine the amount of rain will fill the tank without the need to put the sump water to it. But, in the summer, it would be great to have the sump water diverted to the RWH tank so in periods of no rain we would still have water in the tank. so I was thinking about keeping the 32mm outlet pipe attached to a 3rd pump and in the summer switch over to that pump and disconnect the 'winter' pumps so in the summer we get sump water in RWH tank but in the winter we use the 50mm pipes and output to the ditch next to the property. any comments on that? I guess the 'summer' pump could also act as an emergency pump in the winter if ever required as well.

[Pocster]

@Thorfun ; I’m currently on 1 rain water pump on a 32mm pipe no issues . Like you - had tons of rain .

What’s the size of area that can attract rain and send it to your 1 pump ?. Can’t believe the pipe isn’t wide enough . Have you visually seen the pump output to the height require ? I.e pissing out not trickling ?I’m guessing maybe the pump isn’t man enough for the height you need ?

Edited January 1, 2023 by pocster

[Thorfun]

37 minutes ago, pocster said:

@Thorfun ; I’m currently on 1 rain water pump on a 32mm pipe no issues . Like you - had tons of rain .

What’s the size of area that can attract rain and send it to your 1 pump ?. Can’t believe the pipe isn’t wide enough . Have you visually seen the pump output to the height require ? I.e pissing out not trickling ?I’m guessing maybe the pump isn’t man enough for the height you need ?

I'm also surprised the 32mm isn't coping in periods of heavy rain but I can think of no other reason. when I've been out and the sump is filling up I've checked in the manhole that the 32mm outputs to and the water is coming out at a fair whack so I think the pump is pumping and seems man enough.

 

we have a layer of sandstone about 2m down from ground level on our plot and I believe that it's the main route of groundwater for the area with all the ground water tracking through the sandstone and heading south. since we've cut through that sandstone all the water is dropping down and being collected by our land drain around the basement. the basement is 15m x 8m so it's quite a big area.

 

I'll try and get a video of the water coming out from the land drain during the next period of heavy rain so you can see. the only conclusion I can come to is that the 32mm pipe is the bottleneck. and, tbh, I'd rather not be sitting and worrying about it! if I can fit a 50mm pipe now then I know it'll cope. I can also get the Zoeller pumps as they're 2" outlets and I will be very safe in the knowledge that I've done my very best to mitigate the risk of the sump overflowing.