Welfare facilities under CDM

[Post and beam]

Hi All

First of all i am not even sure this is the best sub heading for this post, Apologies.

My potential build of  a potton Home will be project managed by a potton appointed manager.

Under the CDM2015  regs i am required to provide welfare facilities for the guys on site. I have no issues with this of course but as SiPS construction is usually watertight very quickly can the house be regarded as a suitable rest  place? Does anyone have real world practicle experience of providing welfare facilities for the build team.

Thanks in advance

keith

[Russdl]

I built a shed using timber and windows from the previous demolition and a bit of shiplap. Kettle and a water container, even biscuits and a cool box for milk etc. proper nice it was, well I thought so. The timber frame contractors had a look, admired my handiwork and then retired to their white vans for their breaks, mostly with their own thermos flask (but the biscuits did go). The shed is still in use, but as a shed now. 
 

I think it would be well worth asking Potton exactly what they expect of you to fill their requirements and do the bare minimum to meet their demands. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Russdl
To correct autocorrect

[nod]

Provide a loo and wash basin 

Most will have a brew and a snack in there vans or in your house 

Sitting in a brew cabin is very outdated 

[Post and beam]

I had every intention of providing a portaloo. Until yesterday that was all that i thought i am mandated to provide.

But after a seminar yesterday i discovered that CDM2015 expects the following

 

a seating area

A changing and cloths drying area

Water ( sink) and to drink

Loo

 

You can hire welfare portacabins that provide all that is required but they are about £800-£1000/month

Russdl: Its not what Potton expect, its apparently what CDM requires.

 

Hence the question about whether the watertight house under construction fulfills the need

 

[Russdl]

9 minutes ago, nod said:

 

Provide a loo and wash basin

 

I built another shed for that as well. That was well used and I only had to train one individual on what a bog brush was and how it worked and it was all good from there. 

[ProDave]

I have said before the cheapest way to provide this is buy a cheap old touring caravan.  It will provide a chemical loo, will have seats and a table and a sink and gas stove to boil a kettle.  Only downside is you will have to bring drinking water each day if there is none on site and you will have to empty the chemical toilet.

 

Practical experience, my builders were more inclined to go behind a tree for a pee and bring their own food and drink and sit in their vans.

[Russdl]

4 minutes ago, Post and beam said:

Russdl: Its not what Potton expect, its apparently what CDM requires.

They have to say something (whoever the CDM writer of words is) the reality is wholly different. I told MBC (our timber frame supplier) what I was proposing and they were more than happy that it met the requirements - the toilet obviously being the main one. 
 

As @ProDave says, a touring caravan ticks all the boxes but not everyone has the space for that. 

[nod]

43 minutes ago, Post and beam said:

I had every intention of providing a portaloo. Until yesterday that was all that i thought i am mandated to provide.

But after a seminar yesterday i discovered that CDM2015 expects the following

 

a seating area

A changing and cloths drying area

Water ( sink) and to drink

Loo

 

You can hire welfare portacabins that provide all that is required but they are about £800-£1000/month

Russdl: Its not what Potton expect, its apparently what CDM requires.

 

Hence the question about whether the watertight house under construction fulfills the need

 

It does

[Radian]

54 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Practical experience, my builders were more inclined to go behind a tree for a pee and bring their own food and drink and sit in their vans.

I had to parse that twice. Somehow I misread 'sit in their vans' 🤣

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, Radian said:

I had to parse that twice. Somehow I misread 'sit in their vans' 🤣

 

Make sure you give clear instructions.

[Bonner]

9 hours ago, nod said:

Provide a loo and wash basin 

Most will have a brew and a snack in there vans or in your house 

Sitting in a brew cabin is very outdated 

 

As the man says, they prefer to sit in their vans. No one will challenge you to provide CDM welfare facilities on an individual site, just a portaloo (to stop them going elsewhere)

[nod]

8 hours ago, nod said:

It does

 

It tends to be the lads that work for the companies that clock in then go and get a brew 

Things have changed dramatically over the last forty years 

Once over you could walk in with a tool bag Now we have so many power tools and lasers you want to leave them unattended 

and if your on a price You have something on the go 

Even the health safety mad companies like WD Don’t like this but accept it 

In saying that I would have a first aid kit and an accident book 

Probably never get opened But will tick a box if you get a HSE walk on 

[Blooda]

For our selfbuild we bought a cheap shed, cheap toilet and cheap basin.  Plumbed it in via a hose pipe [froze a couple of times] , and run it to the sewer. 

 

All the trades thought it was luxury compared to the usual Porta Loo.

 

Problem with Porta Loos:-

1) Expensive - you will require it for twice as long as you think. - You don't want random tradesmen christening you nice new porcelain. 

2) Hot in summer and smell so much people avoid them and p!$$ behind them.

3) Smell even in winter.

4) Soon get dirty

5) Smell

 

[saveasteading]

16 hours ago, Post and beam said:

apparently what CDM requires

Not really. You need toilet, wash basin, and somewhere warm and dry to rest. First aid, and fire extinguishers.

They don't have to be in an expensive self contained unit.

In my opinion a site diary is adequate on most projects, doubling as accident book. The diary, kept daily without fail, is the best value of all your project expenditure.

[saveasteading]

If it works for you, install a temporary wc for site use when the plumbing and some walls are in. Costs about £60 for a basic one. Then replace at the end.

[PeterW]

On 06/11/2022 at 20:43, Post and beam said:

But after a seminar yesterday i discovered that CDM2015 expects the following

this.. and.. 

 

On 06/11/2022 at 20:07, Post and beam said:

My potential build of  a potton Home will be project managed by a potton appointed manager.

Under the CDM2015  regs i am required

this..

 

Potton are the main contractor under CDM2015, you are a domestic client. 
 

Under CDM2015 the main contractor holds the responsibility not you - if Potton are telling you otherwise they need to go and re-read the regs … 

[Papillon]

I hate to disagree, but Potton aren’t usually the main contractor, they are just the frame supplier/erector. You appoint a contractor for the main build.

 

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, Papillon said:

I hate to disagree, but Potton aren’t usually the main contractor, they are just the frame supplier/erector. You appoint a contractor for the main build.

 

Which is fine if there is a designated main (or principal) contractor however under CDM2015 if you’re the main contractor on site at that point - ie have total control of all operations, then you are deemed the main contractor for the purpose of CDM 2015 and by the HSE. 

From the HSE website :

 

If a domestic client does not appoint a principal contractor, the role of the principal contractor must be carried out by the contractor in control of the construction phase.
 

So for this to not be correct then the contractor should have an explicit clause in the contract that requires the client to act as such. I would be interested to see where that is highlighted in any Potton contract as I’m not sure how HSE would see it being passed to someone with no liability or training in safe working practice.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kelvin]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Which is fine if there is a designated main (or principal) contractor however under CDM2015 if you’re the main contractor on site at that point - ie have total control of all operations, then you are deemed the main contractor for the purpose of CDM 2015 and by the HSE. 

From the HSE website :

 

If a domestic client does not appoint a principal contractor, the role of the principal contractor must be carried out by the contractor in control of the construction phase.
 

So for this to not be correct then the contractor should have an explicit clause in the contract that requires the client to act as such. I would be interested to see where that is highlighted in any Potton contract as I’m not sure how HSE would see it being passed to someone with no liability or training in safe working practice.

 

 

 

 

 

It’s an interesting point as I understand it the same as you. Our timber kit gets erected in April. The timber kit company is taking responsibility for this. They sent me an email last week and in that they mentioned site welfare suggesting it’s my responsibility. I’ve not challenged it with them yet. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Kelvin

[PeterW]

Providing a toilet is one thing; providing HSE oversight with full accountability for site safety with a full set of RAMs and policies is something quite different !

[Post and beam]

22 hours ago, PeterW said:

Providing a toilet is one thing; providing HSE oversight with full accountability for site safety with a full set of RAMs and policies is something quite different !

I'd agree with that. Paying for a portaloo and a warm shed is something i am happy to do. But credibility and enough relevant experience to be credible with respect to HSE and CDM2015 is another thing.

[Nickfromwales]

At least C19 nonsense has evaporated sufficiently now. It is manageable now, site CDM etc, but I just pay a site manager to do all of this remotely for me these days. RAMS is just a copy / cut / paste affair, and takes my chap about an hour to format site to site.

 

Biggest issue with HSE will be fire, first aid, and dust control. Keep a cheap cyclone vacuum on site, and encourage hoovering vs sweeping up wherever practicable.

Tags on scaffold is an absolute must, as a death from scaffold without a tag will result in a manslaughter charge.  

[Nickfromwales]

On 06/11/2022 at 20:07, Post and beam said:

My potential build of  a Potton Home will be project managed by a Potton appointed manager.

There were a number of 'gaps' in the turnkey package they were supposed to be supplying to my M&E client. I went through a number of things with him, including the through-foundation services penetrations etc, and that highlighted a number of concerns; with whom was responsible for the slab matching the frame, windows fitting the openings, thresholds detailing ( for flush / level thresholds at sliders and front door etc ) transitions for services through the build fabric for larger bore services, and more......

I wasn't impressed tbh.

BTW, they were not doing the slab, nor did they offer that option ( at the time ) so shared very little interest.

[PeterW]

33 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

BTW, they were not doing the slab, nor did they offer that option ( at the time ) so shared very little interest.

Last one I saw there was a near Mexican stand off between the frame installers and the foundation team about who was responsible for the timber ring beam and how it was held down…. Which is kind of fundamental ..!

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, PeterW said:

Last one I saw there was a near Mexican stand off between the frame installers and the foundation team about who was responsible for the timber ring beam and how it was held down…. Which is kind of fundamental ..!

Yup. A lot of mess and confusion. I walked away in the end.