YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

33 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

@joth I figured it out! I have working blinds now. I found this post https://groups.google.com/g/loxone-english/c/jpVNFGtFwEA/m/UIjNxTd7AAAJ which led me to set the Value 2 correction so that a value of 1 = 100 and things are working now. need to time the full open/full closed so I can update those values and then I can see about automating them with the intelligent room controller.

damn it! so close. the blinds started to come down and then about 1/3 of the way down they started slowing and then stalled. I checked in the cabinet while a blind was in motion and the light was on the SSR but there was a pop and then a strange smell that seemed to emanate from the DMX 24V Dimmer. so something isn't right. I'm wondering if the constant draw from the blind is too much for a single dimmer channel on the Whitewing? although each channel can take 2A and the spec sheet for the blinds mentions max 1A (https://www.hallmarkblinds.co.uk/_files/ugd/808103_5ac3ca9495a6443894116d7d27e28a9f.pdf) so I'm not sure that is it.

 

I have a spare few channels on the Loxone Relay so I might try plugging a blind in to two of those and seeing if the same problem occurs. at least that'll help me figure out if it's the DMX dimmer or not. 😢

[MikeSharp01]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I'm wondering if the constant draw from the blind is too much for a single dimmer channel on the Whitewing

Why on earth are you using a dimmer channel to drive a blind? Why not just a relay or a straight SSR controlled from a Loxone output. 

[Thorfun]

24 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Why on earth are you using a dimmer channel to drive a blind? Why not just a relay or a straight SSR controlled from a Loxone output. 

because @joth said so! 🤣 (obviously a joke and I apportion no blame at all on anyone on this forum who gives advice)

 

how would I control the SSR if not from the DMX 24V dimmer? 

[Thorfun]

27 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Why not just a relay

the whole journey down the SSR route being triggered via the DMX dimmer was because I didn't want to fork out for another Loxone relay extension which wouldn't even have enough outputs for all my blinds! I have 8 blinds so need 16 relays.

 

I have been on many journeys of discovery during our build and this was another one. some work and some don't but that is the beauty of the journeys. 

[MikeSharp01]

11 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

how would I control the SSR if not from the DMX 24V dimmer? 

The output of the dimmer driving the SSR sounds like a problem as the dimmer won't be plain on/off it will be a series of pulses / a shaped waveform unless you can set it to be just on/off - it might get upset being turned on / off at 1000 times a second. It won't draw any /much current either. Is the SSR OK to get a 24v signal? 

[Thorfun]

6 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

The output of the dimmer driving the SSR sounds like a problem as the dimmer won't be plain on/off it will be a series of pulses / a shaped waveform unless you can set it to be just on/off - it might get upset being turned on / off at 1000 times a second. It won't draw any /much current either. Is the SSR OK to get a 24v signal? 

it's a good point. it could the PWM causing the issue. I hadn't considered that. but my test tomorrow of wiring one blind directly to the Loxone relay will let me know if it is the issue.

 

The SSRs have 24V signal on one side and switched 230V on the other.

 

 

so the DMX 24V dimmer GND output for a channel connect to the 24V side to trigger the SSR.

[Thorfun]

it worked perfectly when I wired the blind up to a Loxone relay output. I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and buy another relay extension. it's expensive but if it just works it saves me time and hassle which you can't really put a price on, right?

Edited April 6 by Thorfun

[Thorfun]

while I'm playing around with Loxone Config and my setup I notice that my dimmable mains lights controlled by the Whitewing mains 16ch DMX dimmer dim to about 55% in Loxone app and then go off. what is the reason for this? is it the wrong type of dimmable light bulbs? is this the whole constant current/constant voltage difference that I can't seem to get my head around? or something else?

 

 

[Thorfun]

also today I got the 1-wire extension wired up and my UFH temp probes from the bathrooms connected and the electric UFH and towel radiators are now working nicely. 🙂 

 

 

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

also today I got the 1-wire extension wired up and my UFH temp probes from the bathrooms connected and the electric UFH and towel radiators are now working nicely. 🙂 

 

 

I tried this also …

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6 by Pocster

[TechyTim]

Hello everyone! 🙂

 

I've been having a quick ready through this huge thread...at the moment I have one question.

 

-Why are the Weidermueller terminal connections so expensive and where are you getting them from!? Loxone actually seems to be the cheapest place (each).

 

Also, funny photo, but she doesn't look happy.

 

Thanks in advance, Tim

[Thorfun]

7 minutes ago, TechyTim said:

Hello everyone! 🙂

 

I've been having a quick ready through this huge thread...at the moment I have one question.

 

-Why are the Weidermueller terminal connections so expensive and where are you getting them from!? Loxone actually seems to be the cheapest place (each).

 

Also, funny photo, but she doesn't look happy.

 

Thanks in advance, Tim

they are pretty cheap from Loxone IF you want to buy 20 of them! most self-installers won't need that many so it doesn't make sense to buy in bulk. I did a lot of research and here's my results on prices from different places for all my terminal blocks.

 

 

11 minutes ago, TechyTim said:

Also, funny photo, but she doesn't look happy.

our @Pocster is a special thing but he's only allowed out at the weekends. so please don't encourage him.

[jack]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

while I'm playing around with Loxone Config and my setup I notice that my dimmable mains lights controlled by the Whitewing mains 16ch DMX dimmer dim to about 55% in Loxone app and then go off. what is the reason for this? is it the wrong type of dimmable light bulbs? is this the whole constant current/constant voltage difference that I can't seem to get my head around? or something else?

 

Unfortunately, that's the main downside to mains dimming.

 

If you want the ability to dim very low you really need constant current dimmers rather than mains dimmers.

 

Constant voltage dimming is also fine but is generally used for LED strips.

[Thorfun]

6 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Unfortunately, that's the main downside to mains dimming.

 

If you want the ability to dim very low you really need constant current dimmers rather than mains dimmers.

 

Constant voltage dimming is also fine but is generally used for LED strips.

Thanks. So at least it’s not something I’m doing wrong or that i can do anything about! I’ll not worry anymore about it and move on to other matters. 

[MikeSharp01]

45 minutes ago, jack said:

Whitewing mains 16ch DMX dimmer dim to about 55%

Seems quite high, and somewhat disappointing, I was hoping they would get down to about 20% - they won't fade to / from black with a trailing edge system as @jack says. I suppose it could be a function of the bulbs you are using - the circuitry won't be common to them all and perhaps some are better than others.

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Seems quite high, and somewhat disappointing, I was hoping they would get down to about 20% - they won't fade to / from black with a trailing edge system as @jack says. I suppose it could be a function of the bulbs you are using - the circuitry won't be common to them all and perhaps some are better than others.

 

I have 230v Loxone dimmer configured for "trailing edge" driving some bollard lights on the front drive.  They dim down to 8% before they turn off or start to behave weirdly.  Don't know if it's the fittings that are good though, or the Loxone dimmer.

 

Most of the LED drivers (downlights, low-level lighting and LED strips) support 0.1% dimming, others 1% and some track lights at 5% (which is a shame).  Results at such low level of dimming with LED tape and been dissapointing though in my case https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/33333-led-tape-varying-brightness-from-different-modules/.  

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

The challenge with mains dimming LEDs is the forward voltage of the LEDs themselves, the circuit configuration of the LEDs, the rise across the rectifier, the passive current limiting, and the dimming strategy used. In mains driven off the shelf LED bulbs the best we can expect it a floor in the dimming level for smooth operation. 

 

Each LED in the bulb will need a voltage across it, known as the forward voltage, before it will turn on and if they are wired, in the lamp, in series - which is the preferred choice because parallel needs very closely matched LEDs, then those voltages  add up so you need at least that voltage to turn them on. Given that the forward voltage of an LED varies by colour - because the band gaps needed varies by colour and manufacturer so the turn on voltage varies. White LEDs have the highest forward voltage of most LEDs (UV LEDs are higher) at over 4.5V if driven hard (which you will when used in lighting) so if you have 16 of them all in series then you are going to need 72V to turn them on. 

 

(Image Source Wikipedia)

 

When you rectify - turn it from AC to DC you get approximately 1.4 x the AC voltage out so 240V AC in becomes approximately 330V DC out (in a perfect world) - its a thing so don't worry about it.  So we have 330V to play with, carefully, but we also have a lower limit of 72V if we want the LEDs on at all. So this gives us 72V as a percentage of 330V which is approximately 22% (Where I got my expectation of the 20% in the above post) but it is not as simple as that.

 

Trailing edge dimmers, the ones most admired in this application, cut the AC cycle off to a varying degree so for most of the cycle the peak, although truncated, is still above that required to provide 72V after rectification but as it gets towards the end of the wave form the peak remaining is not enough to generate the 72V after the rectifier and the whole thing falls to bits.

 

Image source: www.ledsupply.com/blog/dimming-leds-guide-how-to-tell-if-your-lights-are-dimmable/ 

 

The fact that the lamps get a bit jiggy when you approach this point is down to a combination of a heap of factors which I won't go into but include the fact that the forward voltage required to turn the led drops as the available current drops, as it must when the voltage drops across a fixed current limiting resistor and the ability of the smoothing capacitor to bridge across the tops of the spikes given the now very limited charge voltage and charge times. 

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

Current limit driving of the LEDs is, as @jack says, perhaps the best way forward as you can keep the voltage well above the forward voltage lower limit and just control how much current the LEDs receive and therefore drive them right down to off. Sadly it requires more infrastructure to manage it. Perhaps the best way is to get intelligent bulbs as they rectify the AC and then current control the LEDs so can go down to off but require communications, Wifi, Zigbee, Z-wave, Bluetooth ... to control the brightness, and often colour. Alternatively you could stick with mains dimming and: have fewer lamps on at all if you want lower light, get lower output bulbs so they are not bright at full power or live with the lower limit.

[TechyTim]

12 hours ago, Thorfun said:

they are pretty cheap from Loxone IF you want to buy 20 of them! most self-installers won't need that many so it doesn't make sense to buy in bulk. I did a lot of research and here's my results on prices from different places for all my terminal blocks.

 

 

our @Pocster is a special thing but he's only allowed out at the weekends. so please don't encourage him.

😄 thanks for your reply @Thorfun that spreadsheet looks very similar to mine!

[TechyTim]

12 hours ago, Thorfun said:

they are pretty cheap from Loxone IF you want to buy 20 of them! most self-installers won't need that many so it doesn't make sense to buy in bulk. I did a lot of research and here's my results on prices from different places for all my terminal blocks.

 

 

our @Pocster is a special thing but he's only allowed out at the weekends. so please don't encourage him.

 

Sorry, another thing - just to make sure I'm not missing something.

 

What's the point in the Weidermueller double and triple decker terminal connectors? Or is this only really more suited to retro fitting where the switched twin and earth is being run back to Node 0? I.e. netural with a brown sleeve over wired back from the original in-wall switch or light fitting?

 

Thanks again.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Current limit driving of the LEDs is, as @jack says, perhaps the best way forward as you can keep the voltage well above the forward voltage lower limit and just control how much current the LEDs receive and therefore drive them right down to off. Sadly it requires more infrastructure to manage it. Perhaps the best way is to get intelligent bulbs as they rectify the AC and then current control the LEDs so can go down to off but require communications, Wifi, Zigbee, Z-wave, Bluetooth ... to control the brightness, and often colour. Alternatively you could stick with mains dimming and: have fewer lamps on at all if you want lower light, get lower output bulbs so they are not bright at full power or live with the lower limit.

sounds complicated! 🤣. I will stick with mains dimming and, as you say, have different lights on for different light level requirements. our lighting has been designed around that anyway so shouldn't be too hard.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, TechyTim said:

 

Sorry, another thing - just to make sure I'm not missing something.

 

What's the point in the Weidermueller double and triple decker terminal connectors? Or is this only really more suited to retro fitting where the switched twin and earth is being run back to Node 0? I.e. netural with a brown sleeve over wired back from the original in-wall switch or light fitting?

 

Thanks again.

I love the way you think I know what I'm doing! you've obviously not read all the thread. 🤣

 

I presume you're talking about the terminal blocks? they are used to terminate the twin and earth cables from the light fittings in the cabinet on the 'external' side and then the 'internal' side is wired to the relay/dimmer/whatever that is switched by Loxone.

 

does that make sense?

[joth]

On 05/04/2024 at 19:00, MikeSharp01 said:

The output of the dimmer driving the SSR sounds like a problem as the dimmer won't be plain on/off it will be a series of pulses / a shaped waveform unless you can set it to be just on/off - it might get upset being turned on / off at 1000 times a second. It won't draw any /much current either. Is the SSR OK to get a 24v signal? 

the output value correction @Thorfun already found up thread I'd exactly to solve this: The dimmer will either be 100% on or off with that applied. The reason for 24v dimmer driving an ssr is purely cost saving, but as a bonus the ssr allows you to do rapid or pwm control of the load that would be inappropriate if driven from a mechanical relay.

 

the loxone blind controllers have a built in time for running up or down, try increasing that parameter to see if it runs longer 

 

(sorry for delayed reply. I'm in Porto tastings Porto and you're not a paying customer lol)

Edited April 7 by joth

[Thorfun]

18 minutes ago, joth said:

the loxone blind controllers have a built in time for running up or down, try increasing that parameter to see if it runs longer 

it was set to 70s and I didn't change that value when I did the test with the Loxone relay so I don't think it was that. tbh, I'm not sure what it is but I've decided to ditch the SSRs and move to a Loxone relay. it just worked and I'm ok with having an easy life where things just work. sorry to give up on them but you win some and you lose some.

 

I'll put it on the credit card and figure out how to pay for it in a month or two. 😆

 

19 minutes ago, joth said:

(sorry for delayed reply. I'm in Porto tastings Porto and you're not a paying customer lol)

fair enough! enjoy. 🙂 

[TechyTim]

On 07/04/2024 at 12:07, Thorfun said:

I love the way you think I know what I'm doing! you've obviously not read all the thread. 🤣

 

I presume you're talking about the terminal blocks? they are used to terminate the twin and earth cables from the light fittings in the cabinet on the 'external' side and then the 'internal' side is wired to the relay/dimmer/whatever that is switched by Loxone.

 

does that make sense?

I've had a peak - you're finding your way, as am I 🙂

 

Yes, the terminal blocks. I get the concept, but I don't see the why the double and triple decker versions?

 

Couldn't these be used for all the different circuits, whether it be from a dimmer extension or just using the miniserver relays?