YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Dan F]

4 hours ago, Thorfun said:

while you're on I have another question for you. in the photo of your cabinet I notice that you use the bootlace ferrules at the Loxone extension end as well as the terminal block end for the tri-rated cable. is there a reason why you don't just put the cable in and screw it down? I understand the need for the ferrules at the terminal block end as it's push-fit so needs to be solid but for screw terminals what's the reasoning behind it?

 

It improves the reliability of the connections.  See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJk0mzaATI4&t=35s

 

I found that once I started using ferrules using with stranded cable, I now don't even consider screwing down withough using a ferrule first.  Also makes moving things around after the fact super-easy, rather than needing to re-gather/twist the strands.

 

Edited January 27 by Dan F

[Dan F]

3 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

It improves the reliability of the connections.  See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJk0mzaATI4&t=35s

 

I found that once I started using ferrules using with stranded cable, I now don't even consider screwing down withough using a ferrule first.  Also makes moving things around after the fact super-easy, rather than needing to re-gather/twist the strands.

 

 

Also, if you are daisy-chaining lives (I didn't), using double ferrules is much better than twisting together and inserting two conductors in the same screw termination.

 

[joth]

22 hours ago, Thorfun said:

nice. I do have very extensive schedule documentation so I'm hoping it goes quickly. I can definitely see the benefit of having a second pair of hands to assist.

 

while you're on I have another question for you. in the photo of your cabinet I notice that you use the bootlace ferrules at the Loxone extension end as well as the terminal block end for the tri-rated cable. is there a reason why you don't just put the cable in and screw it down? I understand the need for the ferrules at the terminal block end as it's push-fit so needs to be solid but for screw terminals what's the reasoning behind it?

So I actually never use them at the TB end. Spring loaded terminals are (generally) designed for stranded as well as solid core wire and I generally find it easier and quicker to put them in non ferruled. You do have to press the release button right down when inserting them and of course this doesn't work on solid core only terminals without a release button like the Loxone link and knx wago blocks. 

One time on a hundred a single strand will sneak out into its neighbour's hole, but it's part of the fun debugging those case 😂

 

[Thorfun]

12 minutes ago, joth said:

So I actually never use them at the TB end. Spring loaded terminals are (generally) designed for stranded as well as solid core wire and I generally find it easier and quicker to put them in non ferruled. You do have to press the release button right down when inserting them and of course this doesn't work on solid core only terminals without a release button like the Loxone link and knx wago blocks. 

One time on a hundred a single strand will sneak out into its neighbour's hole, but it's part of the fun debugging those case 😂

 

nice. I've decided to do ferrules at both ends. been going great guns this evening and got quite a bit done. will keep going whenever I have free evenings!

[Rob99]

I always do ferrules at both ends. Keeps it neater and straightforward for anyone else making wiring changes later on. 

[Dan F]

4 hours ago, Rob99 said:

I always do ferrules at both ends. Keeps it neater and straightforward for anyone else making wiring changes later on. 

 

Same here!  BTW, remember to leave a bit of slack on all the wires.  If they are just right, they can become tight when you put the cover on slotted trunking and end up pulling on the connectors.  I had a redo a few of mine because of this.

[Thorfun]

think I know the answer to this one but are there any issues with me cutting off a 'finger' of the cable tray to give more room?

 

one of these things circled in red is what I'm talking about?

[ProDave]

38 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

think I know the answer to this one but are there any issues with me cutting off a 'finger' of the cable tray to give more room?

 

one of these things circled in red is what I'm talking about?

No problem at all, standard practice when wiring industrial cabinets.

[Rob99]

Yep, you can just push them in and out once and they should snap off cleanly, no cutting needed

[Thorfun]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

No problem at all, standard practice when wiring industrial cabinets.

Thank you. I thought that’d be the case but I like to sanity check my ideas sometimes!

 

2 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

Yep, you can just push them in and out once and they should snap off cleanly, no cutting needed

great to know. Thought I was going to have to move loads of cable out the way to snip them off. 

[Thorfun]

qq. when wiring up the Loxone switches do you gel crimp the unused cables and leave them in the back box or do you leave them in the wall behind/above/below the back box and just run the 2 x pairs in to the back box?

 

what is your preference?

 

just wondering if there's room for all those extra gel crimps in the back box.

[Rob99]

If there's no connection of those cores at the other end I just keep them the same length as the Orange/Green pairs and then coil them round the screwdriver shaft and tuck them into the back of the box.

 

If they're left inside the back box they are easy to find later if needed. If they are behind the box in the wall space then you might need to remove the box to get at them, possibly damaging your decorations.

Edited February 7 by Rob99

[Thorfun]

22 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

If there's no connection of those cores at the other end I just keep them the same length as the Orange/Green pairs and then coil them round the screwdriver shaft and tuck them into the back of the box.

 

If they're left inside the back box they are easy to find later if needed. If they are behind the box in the wall space then you might need to remove the box to get at them, possibly damaging your decorations.

cheers. hadn't thought about needing to access them in the future! figured they'd just be left there for ever untouched. but i guess it's a possibility that they might be needed so great advice.

[joth]

6 hours ago, Thorfun said:

cheers. hadn't thought about needing to access them in the future! figured they'd just be left there for ever untouched. but i guess it's a possibility that they might be needed so great advice.

I do something similar, normality wrapping them around the jacket of the cable they come in on

 

If they're connected at the far end, or any chance they may ever be I'll cut it a bit different  length and electrical tape it to ensure it doesn't touch any neighbours or backbox. 

[joth]

12 hours ago, Thorfun said:

qq. when wiring up the Loxone switches do you gel crimp the unused cables and leave them in the back box or do you leave them in the wall behind/above/below the back box and just run the 2 x pairs in to the back box?

 

what is your preference?

 

just wondering if there's room for all those extra gel crimps in the back box.

Just to clarify my answer above was for terminal ends, with a single cable. 

For daisy chain intermediate nodes that have two cables I always gel crimp ALL unused cores to pass through to the next switch in line, in case ever needed there in future. These I'll wrap tight like Rob and stuff in the back of the box

[Thorfun]

the electrician is coming round tomorrow so I wanted to get my Loxone cabinet on the wall so he can run the feed from the CU. it's not fully wired yet but I've done all the mains voltage lighting so I can make a start on configuring Loxone to get some of the lights working, then I can work on the 24V lights after that. one step at a time!

 

[Dan F]

37 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the electrician is coming round tomorrow so I wanted to get my Loxone cabinet on the wall so he can run the feed from the CU. it's not fully wired yet but I've done all the mains voltage lighting so I can make a start on configuring Loxone to get some of the lights working, then I can work on the 24V lights after that. one step at a time!

 

Looking really tidy!  Just one comment though, I'm not sure you should be using "blue" for relays to terminal blocks as this is not nuetral.  Intially, I wondered why you hadn't commoned any of the nuetrals on the terminal blocks (the ones on same RCBO's anyway), but then I released that these are actually all switched lives. 

 

Where is live for relays coming in? Are you daisy-chaining between relays?

Edited February 28 by Dan F

[Dan F]

Or have you wired each side of each relays to a live/nuetral on one of termal terminal block??   

 

If you have, that's not typically how it's done in my experience and would require power being supplied to the light circuit external to the Loxone cabinet somewhere.

 

This is the approach you'd normally use. (the box is your loxone cabinet)

            _________________________________________________

CU -> | MCB -> RCBO -> RELAY -> Terminal Block  (L)  |  ->  Lighting Circuit (live)

CU <- | MCB -> RCBO                  <- Terminal Block (N)  |  <-  Lighting Circuit (nuetral).     (nuetrals for same RCBO commoned on terminal blocks with single cable back to RCBO)

            __________________________________________________

Edited February 28 by Dan F

[TonyT]

Apologies if this is incorrect but why is a mcb feeding a rcbo?   A rcbo contains the same function as a mcb.

[Thorfun]

54 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

Looking really tidy!  Just one comment though, I'm not sure you should be using "blue" for relays to terminal blocks as this is not nuetral.  Intially, I wondered why you hadn't commoned any of the nuetrals on the terminal blocks (the ones on same RCBO's anyway), but then I released that these are actually all switched lives. 

 

Where is live for relays coming in? Are you daisy-chaining between relays?

 

46 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Or have you wired each side of each relays to a live/nuetral on one of termal terminal block??   

 

If you have, that's not typically how it's done in my experience and would require power being supplied to the light circuit external to the Loxone cabinet somewhere.

 

This is the approach you'd normally use. (the box is your loxone cabinet)

            _________________________________________________

CU -> | MCB -> RCBO -> RELAY -> Terminal Block  (L)  |  ->  Lighting Circuit (live)

CU <- | MCB -> RCBO                  <- Terminal Block (N)  |  <-  Lighting Circuit (nuetral).     (nuetrals for same RCBO commoned on terminal blocks with single cable back to RCBO)

            __________________________________________________

hey. so I could very easily have ****** up here! it is me after all. 🤣

 

here's a screenshot of my spreadsheet showing some of my din rain connections

 

 

 

what isn't yet installed in the cabinet are the isolator and the RCBOs that will feed the terminal blocks. the isolator will be fed from the CU and will then feed the RCBOs. these will go on the bottom rail next to the Loxone power supply and backup.

 

it was my (mis)-understanding that the live and neutral from an RCBO would go to a terminal block, e.g. terminal block number 1 above which will then be 'jumpered' across all the way to terminal block 17. and then on the top side of the terminal blocks 2 - 17 the actual T&E cable from each lighting circuit is terminated with the live at the top corresponding to the live, neutral and earth on the bottom which connects to the din rail.

 

the reason I ran blue cable from the relays is they enter the second level of the terminal block which is where the neutral wire of the T&E will terminate.

 

is that not correct?

Edited February 28 by Thorfun
fixed a mistake in the screenshot

[Thorfun]

have I simply run way too many blue cables? could I just jumper the neutrals on the lower side of the terminal block and run a single blue cable back to the RCBO? if so that would leave a lot more room in the cabinet as the number of blue cables would be drastically reduced!

 

no, hang on. that can't be right as I have to take 2 cables from the Loxone relay outputs. so both of those have to go to the terminal blocks.

Edited February 28 by Thorfun
updated as I don't really know what I'm talking about

[Dan F]

55 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Apologies if this is incorrect but why is a mcb feeding a rcbo?   A rcbo contains the same function as a mcb.

 

I havn't shown cardinality, that's all.  In my Loxone cabinet I have a single incoming MCB as a point of isolation and then 8 RCBO's.   (it could have been a simple isolator I guess, but electrician used an double-pole MCB)

Edited February 28 by Dan F

[Dan F]

 

59 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

The RCBOs that will feed the terminal blocks. 

 

I see, so you were planning to do power distribution via the "installation" terminal blocks rather than i) via daisy chaining ii) seperate power distribution terminal blocks.

 

Seems a neat idea, just I'm stuggling to see how it works 🙂   

- Power would go straight out to lighting circuit unswitched (given these are connected to top level), right?

- But then, how does the switching happen? On the neutral?  It doesn't seem thats whats happening here though.

- It seems like your lighting circuits would be always on (given RCBO's connected to installation terminal blocks) and then the relays (any one of them) would short all circuits when they actuate.

 

Or maybe I misunderstood compeltly?  Can you draw a simple ASCI diagram like mine, but what you had in mind?

Edited February 28 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

 

I see, so you were planning to do power distribution via the "installation" terminal blocks rather than i) via daisy chaining ii) seperate power distribution terminal blocks.

 

Seems a neat idea, just I'm stuggling to see how it works 🙂   

- Power would go straight out to lighting circuit unswitched (given these are connected to top level), right?

- But then, how does the switching happen? On the neutral?  It doesn't seem thats whats happening here though.

- It seems like your lighting circuits would be always on (given RCBO's connected to installation terminal blocks) and then the relays (any one of them) would short all circuits when they actuate.

 

Or maybe I misunderstood compeltly?  Can you draw a simple ASCI diagram like mine, but what you had in mind?

I absolutely love the fact that you think I have a plan!

 

I can promise you that it will be me that has misunderstood the whole concept of lighting and relays....................and electricity. 😆

 

I will attempt to draw something for you but I'm not going to have time this evening, sorry. I'll try and put something together tomorrow. thanks for offering to help and please stick with me. although after 16 pages on this thread you'd have hoped I would've learnt something by now.

[Rob99]

If those are double height terminals on the top DIN rail then you won't be able to use them to distribute power from the RCBO, through the relays and out to the individual circuits as there aren't enough connection points. I use triple height blocks for RCBO fed circuits.

 

The Live connection sequence needs to be....... RCBO >> Terminal Block >> Relay >> Terminal Block >> Circuit.

To achieve the correct connections, the RCBO Live feed goes to the top level and is commoned across all terminals at that level. The RCBO Neutral feed goes to the bottom level and is commoned across all terminals. The Live to each relay goes from the top level out to the relay and returns to the middle level. Circuit connections on the outgoing side are then made at middle level for the switched Live and bottom level for the Neutral.

Hopefully this might help: