Triassic Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 A friend Allan) has just called to talk through a problem he's having with his builder. Basically the builder completed the first week on site, building a large lounge, kitchen and dinning room extension. As agreed the first invoice was submitted on Thursday via email, but it arrived without any of the supporting materials invoices as had been agreed in the contract. So Allan emailed the builder pointing this out and after a bit of to-ing and fro-ing a new invoice with the supporting paperwork was submitted for a lower amount late on Thursday night. Allan then goes to London on business early on Friday, anyway during he day he gets an email and two voice messages on his personal phone (switched off because he's with a client all day) wanting to know where the invoice payment is? He only gets these messages when he turns on his personal phone on 6.27pm train home. He emailed the builder saying he'll deal with it over the weekend. He then gets a call on Saturday from the builder saying that there is a problem with a delivery of materials booked for Monday morning, from a local builders merchants. Apparently the BM have just been taken over (true) and have cut his business credit limit. Allan is a senior project manager, so has done all the due diligence on his shortlisted builders, before appointing this one. He's now worried about the builders liquidity. Any suggestions as to the best way forward that will protect Alan's position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Does seem a bit odd, so the invoices are not for work done, but for stuff the builders is ordering for upcoming work? If they are for work done, but the builder needs this cash for upcoming materials then it should be fine as your friend is paying in arrears. In this case I try to pay quickly to help the builder's cashflow. If the payments are in advance then there are maybe two choices (assuming that he would rather not change builder during the project) Either keep the payments small and frequent so he never has too much cash at risk. Or perhaps he could pay the builders merchant direct so that the materials would belong to him and not the builder in the event of a problem although everyone would have to agree to this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted June 18, 2017 Author Share Posted June 18, 2017 He's going to go for option three, he's going to set up an account with the builders merchant and allow the builder to order goods for the job against the account. His main worry was the builders apparent lack of liquidity and the fact he'd tried it on by submitting an inflated initial invoice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Tell him to make sure that only one ( additional ) signatory can book goods out, as in the builder. Set up a password for the account and tell the BM that invoices will only be paid for when a signed AND printed chit is presented. If the BM get sloppy with this pull them straight away. Also ensure that all descriptions and quantities are crystal clear eg no hand-written chits. Edit to add : If your happy with the builder then work with him, and if he invoices on a Thursday make sure he's paid on the Friday. I HATE it when I hold my hand out and there's no dollars, even worse explaining to a gang that their wages are "in a meeting, sorry", and that causes massive repercussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share Posted June 19, 2017 I agree you should pay as soon as possible, however the builders terms were payment within Seven days and as my mate works away he was a bit taken aback to receive calls, emails and text asking for payment within less than 24 hours of receipt of the corrected invoice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 20 hours ago, Triassic said: He's going to go for option three, he's going to set up an account with the builders merchant and allow the builder to order goods for the job against the account. If the builder is stretched on one job he's stretched on all the jobs he has going. There would be a strong temptation for him to order materials for another job on this account. You can try telling the BM to only deliver to your site but that might not be enough to prevent problems. I'd look to close the account as soon as all the big items have been ordered? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 My experience has been that cash flow can be a real problem for small traders, especially if they get one or two late paying customers. A couple of the guys we had working on our build gave us a slightly better price because we purchased all the materials, saying that they would rather make a few pounds a day less on their labour price than have to bear the cost of a load of expensive materials up front. I made a point of paying them all at the end of each week, too, provided the work was OK. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Cashflow only becomes an issue for me if a job takes a long time, and I have to settle the bill for materials before I have been paid for the job, and that means usually by the end of the month following the one I bought the materials in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 We've found that paying within hours rather than days or weeks has been a great motivator with local trades. Some seem to be truly stunned to be paid on the spot, but seem extremely keen to come back when called - as do their friends. It's not only trades that get a reputation, it's clients too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 For the guys I've used the invoice gets paid within the week. Spark seemed shocked I'd paid so early. Only fair - but I don't pay anything on advance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 11 hours ago, JSHarris said: My experience has been that cash flow can be a real problem for small traders, [...] I made a point of paying them all at the end of each week, too, provided the work was OK. Thats exactly what we are trying to do. Its hard getting the paperwork out of our contractor, though. And as @Alphonsox says promptness 'pays' in terms of commitment to a longer term relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 The other thing Allan is finding is that his builder keeps missing a day here and there, he didn't work a full day Friday and only one guy on site yesterday for part of the day. From what the guys on site have said, the builder has six jobs on the go, consequently he juggles jobs to try and keep everyone happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Triassic said: The other thing Allan is finding is that his builder keeps missing a day here and there, he didn't work a full day Friday and only one guy on site yesterday for part of the day. From what the guys on site have said, the builder has six jobs on the go, consequently he juggles jobs to try and keep everyone happy. Alas, that's a common occurrence with small builders Applying pressure is the only real option but I appreciate that's tuff if you're not there all the time. But he does need to lay the law down as no doubt he'll be a "give an inch, take a mile" kind of guy! He'll know exactly which of his clients/jobs he can get away with the most on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted July 9, 2017 Author Share Posted July 9, 2017 Just a quick update on my mate Allan's xperience with his builder. Having insisted on a payment schedule before work started the builder has submitted four invoices for work done. Of these only one was correct, the rest included work started but not completed, the schedule was based on work completed. As a result Allan and the builder now meet on site every Friday to agree what's been completed, what's part completed and what needs to be done to get paid. After a shaky start things appear to be settling down, this has been help somewhat by the builder subcontracting some of the work to someone with more experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 Had a curry last night with Allan and his wife, he's sacked the builder! Apparently the structural engineer turned up to check some site measurements for a beam and block floor and found that the new extension is 1.2m too long and 750mm too wide, consequently the beam span is now too wide and a mid supporting wall will be needed. The builder wasn't willing to install the new mid wall, even thought it was his mistake that it was required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Nice chap. More to the point what is the crack with your PP now, with a structure that's bigger than the permission ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) He's talking to the Architect on Monday, she thinks he might get away with an amendment to the original planning application. The fall back is stop all work and reapply for planning permission and just hope it get approved, otherwise it's going to cost around £7,000 to dig and cast new foundations and redo the block work to ground level. He's also having to reconsider the knock on effects - longer steelwork required for the roof, additional mid wall foundation to support beam and block floor, additional kitchen units, larger area to decorate, floor coverings, window configurations etc . Edited July 22, 2017 by Triassic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 A bit more to it when you you peel back the layers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Just interested to know what the builder had to say about his mistake before he was sacked, was he even apologetic or give an explanation to his mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Sounds a bit of a nightmare. Our planning officer said, unofficially, that they generally allowed 100mm to 200mm for normal tolerances on overall dimensions, but would want to see a material amendment or new application for anything over that. One has to question quite how a builder could make such large setting out errors. I can understand things being out a bit, but 1200mm on one dimension and 750mm on another is way OTT, and smacks of having seriously misread the drawings. Given the slightly dubious track record of this builder to date, one has to wonder whether he's even half-way competent. I suppose that, given the suspected precarious state of the builder's finances, they may not be much point in pursuing him for the cost of remedial work. A former colleague had his parked car written off by a drunk driver years ago, took him to court and won, but the bloke didn't pay up, so he took him to court again, where they made an order for the bloke to pay something like £20 a week. The bloke made a couple of payments and then stopped, so was taken to court again, and another order was made. Again he paid a couple of payments then stopped, at which point my former colleague gave up, as it was now over a year since he'd lost his car, and it just wasn't worth the hassle of continuing to take the bloke to court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Vijay said: Just interested to know what the builder had to say about his mistake before he was sacked, was he even apologetic or give an explanation to his mistake? He didn't attend the site in the end, just sent one of the labourers to collect the tools and site office contents ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 2 hours ago, JSHarris said: I can understand things being out a bit, but 1200mm on one dimension and 750mm on another is way OTT, and smacks of having seriously misread the drawings. Given the slightly dubious track record of this builder to date, one has to wonder whether he's even half-way competent. I suppose that, given the suspected precarious state of the builder's finances, they may not be much point in pursuing him for the cost of remedial work. He had the drawings and only had to ask if there was a problem, the times my mate questioned anything he was met with a defensive attitude and was asked on at least one occasion if he didn't trust the builder! Allan's managed to get another builder, someone Working a few doors away, to pick up the work. The first thing he noticed was the support walls for the beam and block floor was 300mm to low. Its not not as if Allan hadn't done his due diligence, he'd talked to previous customers of the builder and his work looked good. The financial problem only came to light when the builder started and the local builders merchant said they wouldn't supply until previous invoices were paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 It goes to show how difficult it can be to spot a monkey, and sadly there do seem to be a fair few monkeys around. I doubt there was anything more your friend could have done, other than try and track down previous customers to get their view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Triassic said: He didn't attend the site in the end, just sent one of the labourers to collect the tools and site office contents ! Says it all really 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Triassic said: He didn't attend the site in the end, just sent one of the labourers to collect the tools and site office contents ! I would have kept them, and sold them to buy beer. ?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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