Installed channel glass balustrade wobbles

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, markc said:

But if only fixed to top of brickwork it will still go over

 

Only if the bricks have been incorrectly laid.  It is not going to peel off the soldier course of 215mm brickwork, unless they have not used cement in the mortar.  Fixed down every 200mm.

[Gus Potter]

11 hours ago, rhymecheat said:

Don’t know about alternative plans yet. It’s all too fresh and atm I’m really just focused on getting my money back, especially since this business is yet to give me an invoice for this work despite me asking. 

Hiya.

 

Sorry to hear about your experience. Good news is you have caught it early before anyone got hurt.

 

Hope this helps and for all.

 

When you design glass ballustrades the following steps are roughly this:

 

1/ You get the Clients spec. Say height, configuration and if it is say domestic or industrial / public ( say a pub) loading.

2/ Obtain the manufactures' data sheet. This tells you how the glass will perform under load coupled with their track design. They are mostly tested as a unit / system

3/ Look very carefully at what they say the substraight is.. often they say "concrete non cracked ".. or "solid" etc... so could be steel.

 

And this is where it all tends to go badly wrong, things become unsafe and the continuity and liability in the design breaks down.

 

To get say a BBA, CE mark & comply with the standards the manufacturer bolts their glass and track to a very solid test bed in a lab and checks to see if it will carry the load (not fail) and not deflect too much also a failure.. the 25mm often mentioned. The fixings are bolted to the test bed and so long as the fixings don't fail when connected to the test bed all is good.

 

If you read the manufacture's literature this is often where their liability ends. Some don't even specify the fixings! They just give you a hole diameter in the track (could be side or top mounted etc) and the grade of aluminium that the track is made from. I have seen this from a German manufacturer for example.

 

If you are say an SE you then need to calculate the tensile and shear forces in the fixing based on the track dimensions. Check to see if the fixing will pull through the track, check the fixing for all the forces (tension and shear) and often the key is what the fixing goes into and if it can resist the forces. Then you as an SE need to check to see how much you substraight will bend (deflect) by as this is included in the 25mm deflection at the top! Now this is tricky but can be done. All BC sees is the total deflection.. there is only one cake to share deflection wise.

 

In general laymans terms the fixing is subject to mostly tension (the levering effect from the glass), the shear forces (sideways forces) are relatively small. But imagine the glass is like a long pinch bar.. there is a rotational force at the level of the track, this generates a rotational force called a bending moment.. and brickwork is very unsuited to resist these type of forces unless it has a huge amount of dead weight above. In other words you can't put bending moments into the top of a brick wall and expect any good result.

 

You can put bending forces into concrete if it is adequately reinforced or thick.

 

Yes I think the manufacturer is likely in the clear... will be caveated in their spec. The installer should have known better so they are in the line of fire.

 

In the round while I think you have a good case for a claim against the installer for negligance that resulted in damage to the wall. You may want to say.. look.. I'll keep the glass and track, may sell it on ebay and that will cover the damage to my wall due to your lack of experience / knowledge. OR you can sue me as I have not paid my invoice and see how that goes boys and girls. But before you do make sure you have got an SE on board that can justify why you installed a potentially dangerous system.. contrary to the manufacture's recommendations and if you have broken other regs such as CDM etc.. as we will need to have a look at that too!

 

In the round, with a bit of careful thought you may break even cost wise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rhymecheat]

2 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Hiya.

 

Sorry to hear about your experience. Good news is you have caught it early before anyone got hurt.

 

Hope this helps and for all.

 

When you design glass ballustrades the following steps are roughly this:

 

1/ You get the Clients spec. Say height, configuration and if it is say domestic or industrial / public ( say a pub) loading.

2/ Obtain the manufactures' data sheet. This tells you how the glass will perform under load coupled with their track design. They are mostly tested as a unit / system

3/ Look very carefully at what they say the substraight is.. often they say "concrete non cracked ".. or "solid" etc... so could be steel.

 

And this is where it all tends to go badly wrong, things become unsafe and the continuity and liability in the design breaks down.

 

To get say a BBA, CE mark & comply with the standards the manufacturer bolts their glass and track to a very solid test bed in a lab and checks to see if it will carry the load (not fail) and not deflect too much also a failure.. the 25mm often mentioned. The fixings are bolted to the test bed and so long as the fixings don't fail when connected to the test bed all is good.

 

If you read the manufacture's literature this is often where their liability ends. Some don't even specify the fixings! They just give you a hole diameter in the track (could be side or top mounted etc) and the grade of aluminium that the track is made from. I have seen this from a German manufacturer for example.

 

If you are say an SE you then need to calculate the tensile and shear forces in the fixing based on the track dimensions. Check to see if the fixing will pull through the track, check the fixing for all the forces (tension and shear) and often the key is what the fixing goes into and if it can resist the forces. Then you as an SE need to check to see how much you substraight will bend (deflect) by as this is included in the 25mm deflection at the top! Now this is tricky but can be done. All BC sees is the total deflection.. there is only one cake to share deflection wise.

 

In general laymans terms the fixing is subject to mostly tension (the levering effect from the glass), the shear forces (sideways forces) are relatively small. But imagine the glass is like a long pinch bar.. there is a rotational force at the level of the track, this generates a rotational force called a bending moment.. and brickwork is very unsuited to resist these type of forces unless it has a huge amount of dead weight above. In other words you can't put bending moments into the top of a brick wall and expect any good result.

 

You can put bending forces into concrete if it is adequately reinforced or thick.

 

Yes I think the manufacturer is likely in the clear... will be caveated in their spec. The installer should have known better so they are in the line of fire.

 

In the round while I think you have a good case for a claim against the installer for negligance that resulted in damage to the wall. You may want to say.. look.. I'll keep the glass and track, may sell it on ebay and that will cover the damage to my wall due to your lack of experience / knowledge. OR you can sue me as I have not paid my invoice and see how that goes boys and girls. But before you do make sure you have got an SE on board that can justify why you installed a potentially dangerous system.. contrary to the manufacture's recommendations and if you have broken other regs such as CDM etc.. as we will need to have a look at that too!

 

In the round, with a bit of careful thought you may break even cost wise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi there. Thanks for the detailed answer. I’ve got a couple of questions if you don’t mind:

 

1. The system in question is a Bohle VetroMount. From their installation they seem to mention concrete screws. Does this mean the substrate needs to be concrete?

2. The installer told me I have a 10 year guarantee from the manufacturer. But if the system is not installed to manufacturer recommendations, isn’t this guarantee void?

3. The installer says on its website that it is CERTASS certified. Would I be able to file a complaint with them if all else fails?

[Nickfromwales]

18 hours ago, rhymecheat said:

Hi there. Thanks for the detailed answer. I’ve got a couple of questions if you don’t mind:

 

1. The system in question is a Bohle VetroMount. From their installation they seem to mention concrete screws. Does this mean the substrate needs to be concrete?

2. The installer told me I have a 10 year guarantee from the manufacturer. But if the system is not installed to manufacturer recommendations, isn’t this guarantee void?

3. The installer says on its website that it is CERTASS certified. Would I be able to file a complaint with them if all else fails?

1) as per my previous about the bricks being laid over the concrete footing

2) Yup. They have NOT followed MI’s

3) More like MyASS certified. I doubt you’ll need to complain, just the fitters are very wet behind the ears and are chancers, fitting high-end products chasing high-end pay days. They’ll back down i expect, in the presence of the reps and your pending threats of internet shame and subsequent removal from CERTASS whilst they’re investigated. 

[rhymecheat]

Does anyone know who exactly I need to contact for this matter?

 

I tried a chartered surveyor but was told this was not a matter for him. 
 

Also tried the council but they seemed to only deal with planning applications.

 

am a bit lost here on how to proceed…

[Mr Punter]

You need to write to the seller, tell them that the job is not satisfactory and give them the option to either put the work right or refund your money.  If they refuse, take them to court.  You probably will not need the expense of an expert witness, just the video would probably be decent evidence, but perhaps get someone else to film.

[rhymecheat]

2 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

You need to write to the seller, tell them that the job is not satisfactory and give them the option to either put the work right or refund your money.  If they refuse, take them to court.  You probably will not need the expense of an expert witness, just the video would probably be decent evidence, but perhaps get someone else to film.

I see. But the seller tells me that this is done correctly and refuses to do anything else. Between the two of us, he’s the expert. Do I not need to get someone to actually go through regs and give a professional evaluation?

[Mr Punter]

You could do but it will be very expensive.  You could see if Building Control will get involved, subject to you doing a building regs application with a fee around £350.

[ETC]

5 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

You could do but it will be very expensive.  You could see if Building Control will get involved, subject to you doing a building regs application with a fee around £350.

Highly unlikely - BC’s relationship will be with the applicant and BC will put the onus on the applicant to sort the problem out.

[JohnMo]

I have attached instructions and test certificate that details deflects at huge loads it also details the fixing used in the test.

 

The supplier is talking out of his ****

1507-1-GlasslocFixing-and-Wind-Load-Data_0.pdf

[JohnMo]

Glassloc-system-instructions.pdf

[Mr Punter]

1 minute ago, ETC said:

Highly unlikely - BC’s relationship will be with the applicant and BC will put the onus on the applicant to sort the problem out.

 

The OP would be the applicant and the BC inspection would report that the excessive movement of the balustrade is unacceptable.

[ETC]

On 25/09/2022 at 21:23, rhymecheat said:

Hi all, hoping someone around here would have an informed opinion if this is normal or not. 
 

I’ve had a frameless (no handrail, floor mounted with a channel system) glass balustrade installed last month. It looks good and all but I find that it wobbles too much on contact. The wobbling doesn’t seem to be from the glass against the channel but instead the whole channel giving in to the point that I don’t feel comfortable leaning on it at all. 
 

I’ve attached a video to exemplify how much it wobbles

 

 

. 

As you can see the glass seems fixed to the channel, but the whole channel rocks back and forth. This is happening with minimal effort. 
 

When I questioned the installer I was told this had to be like this as if there was no give the glass could smash. I get that, but I also feel like the five should come from the glass against the channel, not from the whole channel moving back and forth. 
 

Anyone have any experience with this type of system that could tell me if the installer is correct or is this a bad installation?

 

thanks in advance

The channel doesn’t look as it it is fixed properly to the floor. BC will ask for the balustrade to resist a horizontal force of 0.36kN/m. I’m surprised the SE you contacted wouldn’t help. A blind man on a galloping horse can see that the balustrade isn’t fixed properly.

[ETC]

6 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

The OP would be the applicant and the BC inspection would report that the excessive movement of the balustrade is unacceptable.

To be sorted by the applicant - not the supplier of the glazing system.

[rhymecheat]

2 minutes ago, ETC said:

To be sorted by the applicant - not the supplier of the glazing system.

I wouldn’t have a problem with that as I feel that would be reason enough for me to open a legal dispute against the fitter. 

[rhymecheat]

4 minutes ago, ETC said:

The channel doesn’t look as it it is fixed properly to the floor. BC will ask for the balustrade to resist a horizontal force of 0.36kN/m. I’m surprised the SE you contacted wouldn’t help. A blind man on a galloping horse can see that the balustrade isn’t fixed properly.

Apologies, what’s an SE?

[rhymecheat]

20 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

You could do but it will be very expensive.  You could see if Building Control will get involved, subject to you doing a building regs application with a fee around £350.

I wouldn’t mind that as it’s a small price for having my money back I feel. 

[Mr Punter]

12 minutes ago, ETC said:

To be sorted by the applicant - not the supplier of the glazing system.

 

The applicant is asking the supplier to sort this in order to comply with regs.  I often apply for building regs and the inspector is not expecting me to personally rectify any issues, but to get my contractors to do it.

[craig]

57 minutes ago, rhymecheat said:

But the seller tells me that this is done correctly and refuses to do anything else.

The sellers talking out his arse. He needs to get his contractors back and get it sorted. The installers should have a bit of professional pride.

 

Surely they never left it like this, if they did then they’re absolute cowboys.

Edited October 18, 2022 by craig

[TonyT]

41 minutes ago, rhymecheat said:

Apologies, what’s an SE?

Structural Engineer

[ETC]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

 

The applicant is asking the supplier to sort this in order to comply with regs.  I often apply for building regs and the inspector is not expecting me to personally rectify any issues, but to get my contractors to do it.

I know - that’s the point. There is no point in getting BC to get their knickers in a twist because they won’t be able to get the supplier or installer to do anything - it will always be up to the applicant to sort this out - however he dose this.

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, ETC said:

I know - that’s the point. There is no point in getting BC to get their knickers in a twist because they won’t be able to get the supplier or installer to do anything - it will always be up to the applicant to sort this out - however he dose this.

 

The OP potentially needs evidence in Court and BC opinion carries much weight at little cost.

[ETC]

BC will not get involved other than to say it’s not acceptable. They won’t give a written opinion for use in court - only a letter to the applicant following an inspection to say that the works do not comply with the Building Regulations.

[rhymecheat]

9 minutes ago, ETC said:

BC will not get involved other than to say it’s not acceptable. They won’t give a written opinion for use in court - only a letter to the applicant following an inspection to say that the works do not comply with the Building Regulations.

Right but if the installer says they do, won’t that letter be enough to disprove him?

[bassanclan]

Did you pay £100 of the bill by credit card?

If not you need an expert opinion by a RICS surveyor. Search their website dor someone local to provide you with their opinion, you will have to pay, but can then sue for the cost of repair plus that fee