Timber brise soleil?

[Jeremy Harris]

Opposite our house, to the South, there used to be (until today) a 30ft high Leylandii hedge.  It was the other side of the lane, and the other side of the stream, and behind it there's a two storey house.  Today, the owner of that house had contractors in and they've cut most of the hedge down to just a few feet high.  As our house is around 10ft higher than theirs, this means that the windows to the front of our house now look directly into the bedroom windows of the house opposite, which was previously hidden behind the tall hedge.

 

I'm not sorry to see the hedge go, but think it could have been trimmed a lot better than it has been, but that's neither here nor there.  One consequence is that we get a great deal more light at the front, and overall that's no bad thing.

 

However, we've always had a slight problem with solar gain from the kitchen window and a small window in the living room, both of which face south.  We also had a problem with the big glazed gable, but that was fixed by installing reflective film, which has the added benefit of making that gable into a one-way mirror, so no one can normally look in.

 

Now that the hedge has been cut right down, we need to do something to give some privacy.  As I've also been pondering over ways to reduce the solar gain, I'm wondering if I can't do both, by fitting a horizontally slatted brise soleil, with the slats arranged as a sort of projecting canopy of boards on edge, with a slight pitch downwards to provide the required privacy.  I've had a look around online, but all the off-the-shelf systems I've been able to find look a bit too contemporary.  Our house looks fairly rustic, and anything I fit will need planning approval, so has to be in keeping with the waney edge larch cladding.

 

Has anyone got any good ideas, by any chance?

[Barney12]

I've Googled/researched this extensively as timber bris soleil are actually a planning condition for us. We have to fit over 20 m2 of the stuff.

 

My conclusions are: as you say the majority are very contemporary (which is fine for us as we have a modern build) and the proprietary systems out there are crazy money (I mean really silly money!).

 

I've concluded that the most likely option for us is to commission our own. I've done some very basic pencil sketch ideas in my notebook involving the design of metal brackets and timber sections. Even allowing for custom steelwork, galvanising and custom spindle moulding the slats I'll still be quids in. 

 

My my biggest challenge is that some of the slats in the central section have to span 4.2m of glass. That means that I've got to come up with some form of metal support behind the timber (think flitch beam) so I can span such a large gap. Its got to hold up against wind and rain at 2000ft above sea level  

 

Thus in summary; is the answer to your question to "roll your own" using suitably rustic timber slats and some custom made brackets?

[Ian]

20 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

Has anyone got any good ideas, by any chance?

Have you got enough room outside for a free-standing timber pergola. Maybe one with a climbing plant on it? No need for PP for that I'd have thought.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Ian

[Jeremy Harris]

@Barney12, thanks, it seems that your research mirrors mine!  The maximum span I need is a bit over 2m for the kitchen window, and less than a metre for the small living room window, so I think it should be possible to make something from timber, with just rails at the ends and the centre (the window has a vertical centre bar anyway).  I have some larch boards left over from cladding the house, and I may have a look at whether I could get these run through a thicknesser and then ripped into narrower boards.

 

@Ian, thanks, it's a good idea, and there's enough room for a slim pergola, but it would still need planning permission, as it's the front elevation and we're in an AONB and Conservation Area, plus we're very close to a Grade II listed building.  We could erect a pergola around the side OK, but not on the main frontage.  I may still sketch something up, though, to see how it looks, as it might be more in keeping with the look of the house.

[Ferdinand]

@JSHarris Ideas.

 

1 - Can you persuade *them* to fit reflective film?

 

2 - Could you plant a strategic clump or two of tall non-invasive bamboo by your fence to screen the neighbour, perhaps in a constructed bed if you want it a little higher from the start? We have one designed to block a neighbour's upstairs window and it is well on the way after a couple of years. Ours is in a former asparagus bed (just to be sure), and should go up to maybe 5-6m. A black or red stemmed one might look quite cool with your cladding.

 

eg Phyllostachys Nigra could reach 3.5-4m plus the height of the raised bed. Or PN "Henon" ==> 8m high !

 

3 - Free standing pergola? i am not convinced a pergola ... unless draped with eg wisteria so you cannot see through it - would do very much to block visibility. And I can see it being difficult to come up with a design that enhances the house.

 

4 - Maybe think veranda or outdoor sitting area. 

 

 

or Ozzie type concept:

 

 

I think the key for design may be integration into or comtrast with the house and roofplane, but I am not sure they will help the neighbour.

 

Ferdinand

Edited June 8, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

@Ferdinand,

Thanks for the ideas, much appreciated.  Part of the problem is the relative levels; our house is around 1.8m higher than theirs, cut into the hillside, whereas theirs is down on the floor of the valley (well inside the flood zone that we had to avoid).  Our boundary fence is about 6m from the house, but almost at the valley floor level, so about 1.6m or so below our house floor level.  This puts our ground floor front windows just a little lower than their first floor bedroom windows.  Their ground floor windows are still behind the hedge, which is only about 3m to 4m from their house.  There is a single track lane, then a small stream, between our fence and the hedge.

 

Modifying the front of our house to add a veranda would be a big job, and, given the struggle we had with the conservation officer originally, might be challenging to gain approval for.  Our approval was gained mainly because we re-created the look of an old barn/stable that had been on the site for well over 100 years.  We'd also have a problem with the PV system, as the lower in-roof panels are right at the eaves, with no slates below them, so they would need to be disconnected and moved out of the way to allow the roof to be extended out, and that may or may not impact the FIT rate.  The eaves are quite low, the soffits are about level with the ground floor ceiling. 

 

I started doing some sketches last night, to try and get a feel for the sight lines, and reckon that a slim, fairly low, pergola, arranged so that the "roof" boards were parallel to the front of the house, might just work.  At the moment, we have two raised, gravel covered, areas either side of the projecting front entrance gable, with a wide stone wall around 400mm high separating these from the driveway.  The distance from the top of this stone wall to the house is around 1.5m.  I'm going to try and jury rig a bit of wood, held up at where I think the outer "roof" timber of a pergola might be today, to get a better idea of how it affects the sight line.  My rough sketch is a bit flawed, as I don't know for sure the position of the neighbours windows!

 

I'm sure I'll need planning permission for anything like this, because of the fact this is the front elevation, plus the planning restrictions we have to deal with.  However, I have a feeling that something like a slim pergola, or some form of timber slatted brise soleil, might be acceptable, especially as the current conservation officer seems a lot more approachable than the last one.

 

Planting bamboo right next to the edge of the drive might work, too.  We have a steep bank from a post and rail fence along the edge of the drive down to the lane around 1.5m below.  The drive is around 400mm below the house floor level.  I've planted a mixed native species hedge right behind the boundary fence at the lane, but at the moment the top of that is still a fair bit lower than the drive level.  I'll have a look and see whether it would be practical to plant bamboo just behind the fence alongside the drive, at the top of the steep bank.  Once it reached around 2.5m or so it might well act as a suitable screen.  There are a few houses in the village that have a species of very tall bamboo growing in their gardens, the sort that has most of its leaves on the top third of the stems.  We also have a couple of patches of self-seeded bamboo growing on the bank, but they seem to be a lower growing, spreading, variety.

Edited June 8, 2017 by JSHarris

[Bitpipe]

12 hours ago, Ian said:

Have you got enough room outside for a free-standing timber pergola. Maybe one with a climbing plant on it? No need for PP for that I'd have thought.

 

That's what we're considering for the rear of the house where we have two 4.5m sliders that are west facing.

 

Still quite expensive though - £3-4k for a 5mx3m pergola. Look at what these guys can do (for inspiration if nothing else).

 

www.gardentrellis.co.uk

 

I bought a £10 5m tensioned wire system from Ikea and the other half made up some dark voile panels that we've suspended from it and already the difference is noticeable.

[ProDave]

How about a strategically planted tree or 2? Thinking of something like Silver Birch that doesn't grow too dense and is an attractive tree? Plant two of those as part of your hedge?

 

I thought having trees south of the house would make it dark and oppressive in summer but they don't, probably largely because we have thinned them out and raised the canopy a little, but they do a good job of preventing too much solar gain, yet allow plenty of sun through in winter when the leaves are off.

 

Is your concern the neighbours looking in? If you are worried they might be concerned about you looking in, well that's their fault for cutting their trees down.

[Jeremy Harris]

A couple of mature'ish trees might work, although planting them might be challenging, as there is a fence at the top and bottom of the steep bank between the drive and the lane.  To be effective fairly quickly, they'd need to be pretty mature specimens, around 4m tall at a guess, and they would need to be evergreen ideally, to provide year round screening.  They would also have to be a species that doesn't grow taller than around 6m to 8m, in order to limit shading to the solar panels, as they would be around 5m closer to the house than the old Leylandii hedge that's been cut down.

 

The overlooking is really both ways, when standing at the sink we will be looking directly into a bedroom window that is dead opposite our kitchen window, and they will be able to do the same.  The situation is similar with the smaller window in the living room, they will be looking directly at the chair I would normally sit in.

 

I'd guess that they will have similar concerns about us looking into their bedroom, so they may well do something about that on their side.  They are pretty private people, who keep themselves to themselves and don't talk to anyone in the village at all, although that may be because they have caused a fair bit of local concern over their actions since they bought the house.  They bought it as a business, a trout farm, and immediately closed the trout farm and emptied all the ponds, allowing then to get very overgrown.  They then applied for, and got, planning permission for change of use of the trout farm to residential use, and to fill in all the old ponds, ostensibly to extend their garden (which they haven't done).  It seems pretty clear that they intended to try and seek planning permission to develop the area for housing, but that was well and truly kyboshed by the tightened flood risk rules put in after the floods of a few years ago (their house was flooded, too).  Now they seem to be turning what had been the trout farm area into a winter parking area for caravans, from what I can see.  They aren't really trusted by anyone in the village, as there is still a fair bit of suspicion that they will try to develop their land into a housing estate.  I'm personally convinced that that is the main reason they purchased the place, as is the previous owner of it.

[Jeremy Harris]

More of the hedge opposite has now come down, and it now looks pretty grim from our side (I'll try and post a photo of it later), and being Leylandii it almost certainly won't regenerate from low down, so it's always going to look dreadful.  Below is an older photo I've posted here before, showing the hedge as it was.  Now it has been cut to around the same apparent height as the roof of my car in that photo.  Before we couldn't see the house opposite at all, it was completely hidden by the hedge, now the first floor is completely visible:

 

 

The post and rail fence that's just visible in this photo is around 800mm high, and around 1.5m or so behind the boundary fence alongside the lane, which is 1.2m high, but its top is below the bottom of the nearest fence.  There's a steep bank between the two, with a young native hedge planted at the lower side of it.

 

I'm now thinking about improving the privacy of the whole of the front of the house, rather than just the windows, and am wondering whether to just erect a tall fence along the line of the post and rail fence that can be seen above.  I've been out with a bit of 8ft long timber, and that's not quite tall enough to block the view in from the windows opposite, but I reckon something around 9ft high would do the job.

 

I know that the general rule, as far as planning regulations go, is that fences can't be more than 2m high, but in this case the fence isn't on the boundary, it's no less than about 1.5m from the boundary fence at its closest point, and over 2.5m away from it at the furthest point.   Notwithstanding this, as it's on the principal elevation, I believe that I still can't go over 2m, and that won't be tall enough.  I've read that a "decorative" addition, like a trellis, on top of a fence isn't normally included in the maximum allowable height, so I'm now thinking of erecting a 2m fence where the upper post and rail fence is, then adding a 600mm high "decorative" trellis above that.   I think that this should give the required level of privacy, as it would block all but the upper third of the windows in the house opposite.

 

Before I talk to the planners, has anyone any views on whether this sounds like a reasonable plan or not?  I can't find anything about how heights are referenced, either, and I'm assuming that I can use the level of the drive as the height reference, because that's the base of the fence (in reality I'll lift the base up by around 50mm to 100mm, as there's a lower rail on that post and rail fence that retains a gravel path).  It's clearly going to be costly, and isn't something we'd thought about before, let alone budgeted for!

[ToughButterCup]

19 hours ago, JSHarris said:

[...]

 We also had a problem with the big glazed gable, but that was fixed by installing reflective film, which has the added benefit of making that gable into a one-way mirror, so no one can normally look in.

[...]

Now that the hedge has been cut right down, we need to do something to give some privacy.  As I've also been pondering over ways to reduce the solar gain

Has anyone got any good ideas, by any chance?

 

Quickest fix, least cost?

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

Quickest fix, least cost?

 

Not cheap, the film fitted to the two windows would probably cost around the same as a fence, maybe more, and it wouldn't stop us looking out at what now looks like a WWI battlefield, right outside the front of the house.  We also have the problem that our previously fairly private garden is now in full view from the windows of the house opposite.  We were going to fit a low fence, on the garden side of the drive, to give some privacy, but I'm coming around to the view that a taller fence on the other side of the drive might provide the same degree of privacy and would have the added advantage of blocking the view of the mutilated hedge.

 

The film would reduce the solar gain, something that a new fence won't help with, but right now that's a secondary consideration, I think.

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

I thought you could not erect any fence over 2M without PP?  and it's 1M if "adjacent" to the highway. The rules have changed in your favour, it used to be between the road and the primary elevation could only be 1M.

 

So I would think a 2M fence at the top of the bank would be okay. Can you raise the ground level there to make a 2M fence work?

[Jeremy Harris]

I've just managed to upload some photos, but only one of the hedge as it now is as the battery died in the camera.  Uploading on this slow connection isn't fun, either..........

 

This is what the front of the house looks like viewed from the level of the lane, which is around half a metre or so above the floor level of the house opposite:

 

 

The post and rail fence at the front is 1.2m high, but was included in our planning permission.  In amongst all the weeds there are some hedging plants.............  The post and rail fence behind is alongside a stone path that now runs next to the drive, and is about  800mm above the drive level at the top.

 

This is a photo taken some time ago, before the path was added along the side of the drive, but at the top right you can just see where the top of the hedge used to be, about level with the top of the power pole (in fact it was a metre or so above it, with the cable running through the hedge):

 

 

This is the view from the front now, taken from the centre of our house, by the front door.  The hedge used to hide the whole of this house, including the chimney:

 

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by JSHarris

[Jeremy Harris]

13 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I thought you could not erect any fence over 2M without PP?  and it's 1M if "adjacent" to the highway. The rules have changed in your favour, it used to be between the road and the primary elevation could only be 1M.

 

So I would think a 2M fence at the top of the bank would be okay. Can you raise the ground level there to make a 2M fence work?

 

I'll need planning permission anyway, as it's the front elevation and we're in an AONB.  Sadly there's no way to raise the ground level at the base of a fence, as it's already right at the top of a steep bank up from the lane.  I think the best I can do is fit a 2m fence where the upper post and rail fence is, then add a trellis-type decorative top.  As I understand it, such decorative additions don't count as far as the maximum allowable fence height is concerned.  I think the only person that could reasonably complain is the one opposite who's just cut the hedge down, and it is probably as much in his interest as ours for us to provide him with a bit of privacy, too.

[ProDave]

Seeing the pictures the overlooking issue is not as bad as I thought, mainly due tot he angle of the house opposite. Do they actually use that bedroom with the window on the end?

 

I would probably just let your own hedge grow to the height you feel comfortable with.

[craig]

I would certainly suggest a window film applied internally to the glass, several suppliers of this film exist and you can get various levels of film from decorative to mirror effect. I would suggest having a look at window film companies such as [commercial link deleted]

Edited June 8, 2017 by Crofter
Commercial link

[Jeremy Harris]

30 minutes ago, craig said:

I would certainly suggest a window film applied internally to the glass, several suppliers of this film exist and you can get various levels of film from decorative to mirror effect. I would suggest having a look at window film companies such as (advert link deleted)

 

Something like the (product name deleted) may be of interest and at reasonable cost.

 

Not possible, as we have triple glazing, with two low e coated internal surfaces.  Fitting an internal IR reflective film would cause the glazing unit to overheat and fail.  The only IR reflective film solution that will work with high performance 3G is an external film, like that which we've already fitted to the larger glazed areas.  This film works very well, and lowers the overall glazing unit temperature quite substantially, with the inner pane staying close to room temperature, even in strong sunshine.

Edited June 8, 2017 by JSHarris

[ragg987]

We have this. Stainless L-channel and plate knocked up by a local fabricator and off-the-shelf Canadian Western Red Cedar slats cut to size. I kept the downward angle of the slats small - about 10 deg - to permit water run-off without blocking the view and light.

 

In our case it has a practical purpose but is also an architectural feature.

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by ragg987
aargh - if you cut and paste an image while replying it works but when you post that it gets dropped!

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, ragg987 said:

We have this. Stainless L-channel and plate knocked up by a local fabricator and off-the-shelf Canadian Western Red Cedar slats cut to size. I kept the downward angle of the slats small - about 10 deg - to permit water run-off without blocking the view and light.

 

In our case it has a practical purpose but is also an architectural feature.

 

 

 

Thanks very much @ragg987

 

I like the look of those slats, and it would solve both the overlooking and solar gain problems.  I could do something similar with some of the larch I have left over, I think. 

 

Do you have a photo from inside looking out, by any chance? 

 

Also, what are the dimensions of the slats?

[Jeremy Harris]

44 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Seeing the pictures the overlooking issue is not as bad as I thought, mainly due tot he angle of the house opposite. Do they actually use that bedroom with the window on the end?

 

I would probably just let your own hedge grow to the height you feel comfortable with.

 

We're now going to try and grow the hedge to a much greater height, but that's going to take several years, as it's barely a metre high at the moment.  I'm going to buy some bigger hedging plants to fill in some gaps where some of the bare root plants aren't doing well, which will help, but it's not going to be a quick solution.

 

The end bedroom is in use, and we've seen them looking out at us, but that may be in part because of the novelty of having a view of our house for the first time.

[ragg987]

These are the slats, 95mm x 20mm: https://www.vastern.co.uk/cladding/splayed-cladding/

 

Photo inside to out attached - this is my study and doubles as a spare bedroom (working from home today). A caution, this assembly is not light and you need to make sure you can anchor it well. We had 150mm x 150mm timbers behind the aluminium clad windows anchored top and bottom and the screws go about 120mm deep into that.

[ragg987]

Oh and I should mention that slat spacing had to comply with build regs for baby head gap - that middle window is actually a door the swings open completely. But that spacing with a 95mm extension works well for reducing solar gain.

[Jeremy Harris]

@ragg987,

 

Thanks again, that's very helpful indeed.  I think we should be OK for fixings, as there are timber frame members either side of the window openings, with 50 x 25 battens on top, then the larch cladding, so I can screw right through the lot to give a secure fastening.  I may look at doing a sort of hybrid arrangement, with a fabricated stainless section to take the slats, but with larch cladding on the outer faces, to hide the stainless, only because that would blend in better with the house external finish.

 

I'm impressed with the visibility through 20mm thick slats, it's better than I thought it might be.  I'd want to angle the slats down much the same as you have, because the windows opposite are slightly higher than our ground floor windows, so a slight angle would not only help the rain run off but would also provide a bit more privacy.  I might also increase the spacing a bit, as we don't have a building regs issue, as both windows are too high from the floor level.  To compensate for this I think it would be OK to space the whole unit further off the wall, as this wouldn't cause a problem outside, at all.  The two windows I'd want to fit these two are the ones at either end of my car in one of the photos above.  The big glazed gable has external IR reflective film, that turns it into a one-way mirror most of the time.

 

I'll start a new topic on fences and planning, as it seems a bit of a diversion to discuss that in the windows topic area.

[Ferdinand]

WIll visit the new thread, however on the whole garden privacy.

 

Have you considered a relatively lightweight nursery fence for a few years while the hedge grows? I am think of something like wattle or bamboo matting, which should be OK given your microclimate. That could be quite inexpensive, and may attach directly to your post and rail depending on its strength or could be done with support from knocker posts and rails like a 6ft horse fence. Aside from the visual block panels that basic fence costs around £6 to £7 per metre run for materials, probably including fixings.

 

They quite happily support 2m fence panels in reasonably windy areas for a few years, but I think something more diffuse would be better in your valley.

 

My understanding of trellis over panel above 2m is in the "may get away with it" category.

 

It would probably only need 5 years to grow a good hedge from where you are now, and I think may help soften the quite high amount of hard landscaping you have.

 

I think that ultimately a hedge is a better option.

 

The other option I have seen to give privacy at window level was traditional Venetian blinds on the inside. WOuld not help heat, however.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Ferdinand