Rationel Windows, recommended way to couple?

[DukeOfTarp]

Hi All

 

Does anyone have experience of the "correct" way to install Rationel casement doors with side screens.  We have a number in our new build like this:

 

 

All appears ok from a distance

 

another set is even has day light indetween the door and side window

 

The windows were supplied and fitted by the local Rationel distributor

 

They've coupled the two elements by drilling into the frame and screwing it to the next. They seem to have butchered the windows. They said they would use a plastic plug to cover up the hole

 

They claim to have followed Rationel guidance but Im not sure?

 

Looking at the Rationel web site it doesnt help much except for cross section of "Couplings"  but I note no obvious white plastic caps on their lovely marketing pictures.

 

Does anyone have a manual or set of instruction of best Rationel practice? I am told that it should at least had a coupling strap installed but I am not sure what this should look like. 

 

Should/could the windows have been coupled invisibly and then offered up to the gap? They came in three pieces. For these large openings the company sent 4 men but on reflection some left early and not installed as one but a bit at a time.

 

Rather peeved... 

 

I can accept a poor purchase but we even paid extra to have the frames painted two colours. 

 

thanks in advance.

 

A building friend said I should have agreed a fixing schedule, I recommend all others do! They fixed another 20 frames by simply screwing in the frame to the outer  wall, vs the typical details from Rationel that uses a tie, so the frame is not screwed through.

 

kind regards

 

 DofT

Couplings.pdf

[Mr Punter]

The plastic caps happen a fair bit, especially when they are direct fixed through the frame.  It looks like they have fixed metal straps to the windows then fixed these to the inner leaf, which is standard.  The gaps often have a filler piece or backer rod, then mastic.

 

It may be that the profiles for the doors and the side lights are not matching, so there is not a neat solution.  Not fantastic, Your Grace, but not terrible either.

[Russell griffiths]

That is utter shite. 

I have a different make, but I have two windows that join. 

Each window had a routered out groove, a piece of hardwood timber was trimmed to a nice fit, then a generous line of quality sealant was applied to both windows then 4 screws added to pull the two together. 

I was given the option of a plastic cap, or do my own thing, I opted to have a neat hole drilled that will be filled with a wooden plug and then painted to match. 

 

What sort of air test rating do they do they give you for the windows, how do you think that will pass

 

time to call out the installation manager. 

[LA3222]

I've got a very similar configuration in my sunroom:

[ProDave]

We only have one such joint where the door to the bedroom balcony joins to the bedroom window.  This was fitted by our builders.  I believe there was some form of flat joining strip supplied, it was very thin and not visible when completed.  Lots of sealant was applied before offering the 2 halves together, and the builders hid the fixing screws by removing parts of the door frame that the locks latched into, drilling and fixing through behind those, and then re fitting them, so all fixings at the joint are completely hidden.

 

No daylight visible, no draughts ever noticed, even when the house was depressurised for the air tighness test.

[Simplysimon]

you would have had to pay the windows prior to delivery but what about fitting?

[DukeOfTarp]

13 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

The plastic caps happen a fair bit, especially when they are direct fixed through the frame.  It looks like they have fixed metal straps to the windows then fixed these to the inner leaf, which is standard.  The gaps often have a filler piece or backer rod, then mastic.

 

It may be that the profiles for the doors and the side lights are not matching, so there is not a neat solution.  Not fantastic, Your Grace, but not terrible either.

Thanks for the input.

I think the plastic caps are poor, no mention of them by the salesman or any in the show room. If we  accept them they are going to stick out like a sore thumb. 

The holes are also not consistent in spacing  nor are they the left hand holes the same as the right!

[DukeOfTarp]

9 hours ago, Simplysimon said:

you would have had to pay the windows prior to delivery but what about fitting?

I still have 10% to pay, which I am not going to pay until I get it resolved!

[DukeOfTarp]

12 hours ago, ProDave said:

We only have one such joint where the door to the bedroom balcony joins to the bedroom window.  This was fitted by our builders.  I believe there was some form of flat joining strip supplied, it was very thin and not visible when completed.  Lots of sealant was applied before offering the 2 halves together, and the builders hid the fixing screws by removing parts of the door frame that the locks latched into, drilling and fixing through behind those, and then re fitting them, so all fixings at the joint are completely hidden.

 

No daylight visible, no draughts ever noticed, even when the house was depressurised for the air tighness test.

This sounds like the considerate install I would have hoped for!

[DukeOfTarp]

13 hours ago, LA3222 said:

I've got a very similar configuration in my sunroom:

 

thanks.  where is the middle picture looking at?

[DukeOfTarp]

13 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

That is utter shite. 

I have a different make, but I have two windows that join. 

Each window had a routered out groove, a piece of hardwood timber was trimmed to a nice fit, then a generous line of quality sealant was applied to both windows then 4 screws added to pull the two together. 

I was given the option of a plastic cap, or do my own thing, I opted to have a neat hole drilled that will be filled with a wooden plug and then painted to match. 

 

What sort of air test rating do they do they give you for the windows, how do you think that will pass

 

time to call out the installation manager. 

Agreed on shite...

 

We are aiming low air test score as we have a MVHR unit.

 

I am going to write to the company. To date though they keep saying weve installed them as per Rationel instructions. I dont believe that is the case for every single opening but keen to understand what is the Rationel best practice guide, thus the original post.

 

Funnily enough the lady did ring 10 days ago saying they wanted to come in mid June to do the snagging, I asked " do you have the snagging list so the guys know what they are going to do?". She said "I will email it over as it easier that reporting it over the phone". Guess what ? no email...

[Roundtuit]

As above, they should have been supplied with a thin timber jointing strip that fits into the rebate in the frames, so not visible when fitted.

 

To be fair though, mine were big windows and hard to manoeuvre, and too tight in the opening to get the joining strips in, so they're butted-up and screwed like yours, but with a load of sealant between.  I've currently got 10mm plastic caps over the screw heads with a view to filling and painting at a later date.  Rationel can provide colour matched spray paint.

[Nickfromwales]

A simple resolve would be to get a cosmetic repair company ( such as Mr.Magic ) to fill and paint the screw holes. 
Agree a discount to the value of the repair.

That will be the end of your problem re cosmetics*
 

“Technically” they’ve done nothing “wrong“, just the fact that the screws weren’t put in on exactly recurring and matching centres is, absolutely, sloppy workmanship. 

 

*Closing the gaps for the AT test will be a challenge, but you can use clear CT1 and fill most voids that way. Use baby wipes to clean away excess, but use your finger with a wipe over it to force the excess into the joint vs just wiping it away. CT1 cleans off completely, so don’t worry about getting a bit of it on the face of the frames. Have some CT1 MultiSolve spray to hand for final spit ‘n polish. The installers should carry this out eg before you accept the job as complete, however I would do this myself for assurances that it had been done properly.

 

 

For others who are due to receive their delivery and have an installation carried out;

I am to soon take ( supervise ) delivery of a 5m long 3-panel slider on behalf of a client. After seeing the efforts ( lol ) of the first set of fitters the client and I decided the sliders needed premier installers, so I contacted Dovista ( who own Velfac and Rational ) and they gave me details of a very helpful and competent installation company to come and install. ( PM me for details if anyone wants them ). 
Regardless of their pedigree, I will be asking for a 30 minute meeting with the installers regarding their intended installation methods, down to every screw / fixing / finish / AT measures / weather resistance & final sealing etc. So, BEFORE they even take their tools out of the van, I will have asked for, and be familiar with, their intended methods / practices. I will be stating that screw holes, if so required, are indeed at recurring / matching / symmetrical intervals and will accept nothing less. 
 

Ask questions people, it’s your money and 100% your prerogative to do so. Expecting things to “go well” with such a significant program ( and cost ) is a little ambitious imho. Lack of a PM/PC is the usual culprit, or self builders who are running their own project with no understanding of each trade / associated disciplines. It seems it is more common for this to go wrong vs right.

 

32 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

I've currently got 10mm plastic caps over the screw heads with a view to filling and painting at a later date.  Rationel can provide colour matched spray paint.

So you identified this and mitigated(?), which is exactly what should happen.

 

Ask questions before, not after!!

[LA3222]

1 hour ago, DukeOfTarp said:

 

thanks.  where is the middle picture looking at?

It's the join between the frame of the door and the frame of the side panel. So the join where you have nothing, with my install they put this gasket in, not sure if it's silicone too as I wasn't watching the install. However my ACH came out at 0.2 when tested so whatever they did, it does the job.

[Modernista]

We've been using the Rationel jointing strips and the joiners have coupled as per Rationel instructions and all fine.

[DukeOfTarp]

1 hour ago, Modernista said:

We've been using the Rationel jointing strips and the joiners have coupled as per Rationel instructions and all fine.

Hi Modernista

So the joining strips exist! I appreciate the pictures

 

If these are used does it remove the need to drill through the frame in the mammer theyve done on my windows?

 

If you had them to hand a photo of the instructions would be very kind.

 

KR

DoT

[Nickfromwales]

They won’t negate a mechanical 

fix such as a screw.

[LA3222]

2 hours ago, DukeOfTarp said:

Hi Modernista

So the joining strips exist! I appreciate the pictures

 

If these are used does it remove the need to drill through the frame in the mammer theyve done on my windows?

 

If you had them to hand a photo of the instructions would be very kind.

 

KR

DoT

Pretty sure that is the strip shown in my photos above. I'm sure they were included in the schedule when I placed the order with rationel.

Edited June 8, 2022 by LA3222

[craig]

Looks like the coupling profile is missing on the inside and out, in the groove you would normally have a hardwood coupling profile. The section below is obviously two fixed windows but it's no different to coupling doors to fixed windows etc.

 

You would normally screw through the frame, just to secure and pull it closer together but most will look to make these invisible by hiding them behind the keeps. Alternative is plugs or caps, caps being last resort. 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by craig

[LA3222]

17 minutes ago, craig said:

Looks like the coupling profile is missing on the inside and out,

 

Explains why I had 8 on my order with there being two per join.

 

@DukeOfTarp have you checked your order schedule to see if they were included? Installers cant fit them if there werent any present?

Edited June 8, 2022 by LA3222

[Modernista]

I wonder if it may be different for door frame sections (we used the casement 'windows' as doors to have slender sections so they were effectively big windows but just to say as an aside that Rationel will make them 2.4 high without a transome so very good from that perspective). The standard detail still includes the caps and screws as others have noted but obviously this can be hidden in a rebate where you have opening lights. But the joining strips give a very neat airtight joint without anything showing.