Just bought a plot

[Walkaholic]

After a search of at least 18 months I've finally got myself a half acre plot, in a lovely rural part of North Ayrshire. The idea of being a landowner is still sinking in - I've looked at so many plots and have generally been outbid. I've put in two offers before this - I pulled out of the first one and the purchaser pulled out of the second.

 

I'm planning to build a cruck frame straw bale house - if the planners give permission. Maybe an eco-friendly design will appeal to them. Anyway, the real fun starts now, and I'm sure I'll have lots of questions for this forum along the way. Maybe I'll be able to answer some too.

 

The first question I'll be posting is about soil surveys - if anyone can recommend someone to do this in Ayrshire, please let me know. I'll also be looking for someone to dig test pits.

 

Looking forward to sharing my journey.

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome.

 

The planners down't care about cruck frames or straw bales, they just care what it looks like.  If the exterior meets their expectations, no reason why not.

 

Building control may be a little more interested in the details.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Walkaholic said:

about soil surveys

I recommend chatting to one or more local Structural/Civil Engineers.

They will probably get your site up on the pc while you talk.

 

Being on their patch, they will 95% know what they are going to find even before digging any holes, and how that affects construction, drainage etc.

They are also more likely to request a couple of simple holes rather than expensive boreholes (subject to what they expect of course), than someone less expert or less local.

You will also get to meet at least one of them while the hole is dug , get some free advice on the site, and see if you like their attitude.

Get a quote from them first of course, after discussing what they will want to do.

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

planners don't care about cruck frames or straw bales,

Neither do I.

I don't rate it actually and I study every method with an open mind.

 

It is a very big deal to build  a house, and the risks are huge when you depart from the norms.

For one thing there is unlikely to be a builder locally who has done this.

And for a second thing, the interfaces seem to be clunky. 

 

However, if you have seen successful finished houses (perhaps 10 years on for the effect of weather and creatures) then I will bow to your greater knowledge.

Are there any 50 years old to completely dispel my doubts?

[Adsibob]

18 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Are there any 50 years old to completely dispel my doubts?

50 years? Anyone going through the blood, sweat and tears of building a house surely wants it to last for generations, not decades!

[Walkaholic]

17 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Neither do I.

I don't rate it actually and I study every method with an open mind.

 

It is a very big deal to build  a house, and the risks are huge when you depart from the norms.

For one thing there is unlikely to be a builder locally who has done this.

And for a second thing, the interfaces seem to be clunky. 

 

However, if you have seen successful finished houses (perhaps 10 years on for the effect of weather and creatures) then I will bow to your greater knowledge.

Are there any 50 years old to completely dispel my doubts?

 

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have been doing research, and a few courses as I intend to do most of the build myself. There is one strawbale cruck frame home of the type I'm interested in which is I think about 8 years old. I will have help from someone who has been involved in these builds before, and he is going to speak to the builder and owner of this house soon - I've asked him to let me know about any issues. Hopefully I'll be able to speak to him directly at some point. There is another house of the same design, but it's only a couple of years old. I'm hoping to speak to the builder of that house too.

 

There are straw bale houses in the US and France which are more than 100 years old. Apparently no one realised they were built from straw bales until repairs were being done in the 1970s and 80s.

 

[Walkaholic]

34 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I recommend chatting to one or more local Structural/Civil Engineers.

They will probably get your site up on the pc while you talk.

 

Being on their patch, they will 95% know what they are going to find even before digging any holes, and how that affects construction, drainage etc.

They are also more likely to request a couple of simple holes rather than expensive boreholes (subject to what they expect of course), than someone less expert or less local.

You will also get to meet at least one of them while the hole is dug , get some free advice on the site, and see if you like their attitude.

Get a quote from them first of course, after discussing what they will want to do.

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.

[Walkaholic]

6 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

50 years? Anyone going through the blood, sweat and tears of building a house surely wants it to last for generations, not decades!

 

So I can return to it in my next life? 😁

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, Walkaholic said:

US and France

Can be very different to here.

The challenge with the British climate is dampness.  All year, never drying out dampness, never hot nor cold enough to kill the bugs off, so that rots and moulds can thrive.

That would be my worry re straw.

And do any farmers use straw buildings to protect even their tractors?

 

I don't say don't, and I realise I seem very negative, but I would want evidence of a long-term success in UK climate.

Watch out for the Ayrshire cows eating your house.

 

As ProDave says, the planners don't care: it is not in their remit.

As I say, there are other ways to do sustainable construction, without gimmicks.

Cement is bad, yes I know, but use lime in ground improvement and masonry. Use reclaimed materials.

Most of all, use a good designer, yourself included, who does not give you cautious designs using more material than is necessary.

Basically use less stuff, by efficient design.

 

Timber building with timber cladding and timber fibre insulation?

Fleece insulation if you can afford it.

On lime improved ground, with locally reclaimed aggregates, and lime instead of concrete where you can?

All drainage to soakaway.

ASHP and solar.

 

And keep us informed please.

 

[SteamyTea]

Welcome

  

14 hours ago, Walkaholic said:

eco-friendly design

 

What do you actually mean by that, there is no real definition.  Cast concrete, steel reinforcement with aluminium window frames can be Eco, as long as you clad it in timber and put a PV module on the roof.

And make sure the drive is water permeable, don't want the Rangerover wheels getting wet. 

[ToughButterCup]

15 hours ago, Walkaholic said:

...

I'm planning to build a cruck frame straw bale house - if the planners give permission. Maybe an eco-friendly design will appeal to them. 

...

The first question I'll be posting is about soil surveys - if anyone can recommend someone to do this in Ayrshire, please let me know. I'll also be looking for someone to dig test pits.

...

 

Welcome. Especially so to someone from my clan's own county. 

 

As @SteamyTea hints, 'eco'  is a tricky adjective. But do not be put off from your determination  by the dismissive comments about planners above. Being seen to make an effort in ecological terms is no bad thing: even if there's a range of opinion about what that actually means. It forms part of the mood in which planners make decisions. Our architect knew that our planners were very keen on ecologically sensitive design. And while the arguments presented above are technically correct, the micropolitics  of an application matters.

 

While discussing our application in a In a public forum, one local councillor openly said that;

"The reason this application will be accepted is because of its eco-credentials"  I ignored the comment at the time. There's no way of weighing the accuracy of the remark. Except that it was made.

 

As to digging a test pit..... Get the test pit specification.  Hire a digger. Enjoy making your own. Great fun.

Good luck

Ian

 

[CharlieKLP]

Always thought straw bales as a wall was silly and a bit of a Grand Designs gimmick. It’s hard to get insurance and the wall is too thick.

That’s really cool though I admire your ambition, also look out for wolves huffing and puffing.
 

 

[Iceverge]

Congrats and welcome. 

 

Plenty of ways to build with straw. If you can afford it don't be put off. 

 

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/new-build/deep-green-passive-house-defies-all-weather

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/new-build/timber-straw-passive-house-is-a-world-first

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/new-build/norfolk-straw-bale-cottage-aims-for-passive

 

17 hours ago, Walkaholic said:

Maybe an eco-friendly design will appeal to them

 

This phrase has been much abused by various peddlers of gimmicks unfortunately. If you can separate it into quantifiable embodied carbon in the building and carbon use in occupation you're onto a winner. 

 

 

Good luck! 

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

Maybe an eco-friendly design will appeal to them

 

Has this subject come up because you feel you need to appease the planners, or because you really want  it yourself?

 

I can't recall any planning permission being approved/rejected solely because of 'eco-design'.

It is always more eco-friendly not to build at all.

It could feasibly swing a marginal decision I suppose, but at great expense, and limiting the design options.

 

You are also right that straw/ hemp/ lime are things that appeal, because they sound natural, and hence could appeal to non-experts such as councillors and planners (who are not technical people).

 

Hence if you want to go with straw, the pitch is easy.

If you don't want to go with straw then you sell whatever you do choose on its merits. That takes knowledge, research and presentation skill , but it is interesting, satisfying, and helps you tweak your project even more to practical and realistic carbon reduction.

 

'Use less stuff'  is my mantra, but not much understood by the professions.

 

Also build in that an efficiently built  building that is in use and has adapted to changing lifestyles after 100 years is a success, and more sustainable than one made of trendy materials that lasts 50 years.

 

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Iceverge said:

If you can separate it into quantifiable embodied carbon in the building and carbon use in occupation you're onto a winner. 

And improve the bio-diversity score.

8 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

'Use less stuff'  is my mantra, but not much understood by the professions.

Yes, works a treat for me, and requires very little capital expenditure.  Though I think I am close to the lower bound of what can be achieved.

[Walkaholic]

On 02/04/2022 at 09:37, ToughButterCup said:

 

Welcome. Especially so to someone from my clan's own county. 

 

As @SteamyTea hints, 'eco'  is a tricky adjective. But do not be put off from your determination  by the dismissive comments about planners above. Being seen to make an effort in ecological terms is no bad thing: even if there's a range of opinion about what that actually means. It forms part of the mood in which planners make decisions. Our architect knew that our planners were very keen on ecologically sensitive design. And while the arguments presented above are technically correct, the micropolitics  of an application matters.

 

While discussing our application in a In a public forum, one local councillor openly said that;

"The reason this application will be accepted is because of its eco-credentials"  I ignored the comment at the time. There's no way of weighing the accuracy of the remark. Except that it was made.

 

As to digging a test pit..... Get the test pit specification.  Hire a digger. Enjoy making your own. Great fun.

Good luck

Ian

 

Thanks Ian.

 

Actually a couple of years ago I looked at a plot in a different council area, made enquiries to the local planning dept and received a positive response. I think they liked the idea that it might be an eco-friendly design. The purchase fell through for different reasons.

[Walkaholic]

On 02/04/2022 at 11:22, CharlieKLP said:

Always thought straw bales as a wall was silly and a bit of a Grand Designs gimmick. It’s hard to get insurance and the wall is too thick.

That’s really cool though I admire your ambition, also look out for wolves huffing and puffing.
 

 

Last year I worked on the construction of a straw bale extension to a community centre. It was good fun and a learning experience.

 

The design I'm looking at is a wood frame with straw bale insulation so it will be a bit different. It should keep the wolves at bay, and more importantly the westerly winds. 😁

[Gus Potter]

On 01/04/2022 at 17:47, Walkaholic said:

After a search of at least 18 months I've finally got myself a half acre plot, in a lovely rural part of North Ayrshire. The idea of being a landowner is still sinking in - I've looked at so many plots and have generally been outbid. I've put in two offers before this - I pulled out of the first one and the purchaser pulled out of the second.

 

I'm planning to build a cruck frame straw bale house - if the planners give permission. Maybe an eco-friendly design will appeal to them. Anyway, the real fun starts now, and I'm sure I'll have lots of questions for this forum along the way. Maybe I'll be able to answer some too.

 

The first question I'll be posting is about soil surveys - if anyone can recommend someone to do this in Ayrshire, please let me know. I'll also be looking for someone to dig test pits.

 

Looking forward to sharing my journey.

Delighted for you, great part of the country. I'm not far away from you.

 

As others have said planning is to do with what it looks like from the outside not what is behind the facade. However the planners may be quite interested in what you are doing as they will may want to learn from what you are doing for experience. BC will also I think be interested for the same reasons, when you get to that stage. My advice is to engage and embrace.. you may get a pleasant surprise, if not you can battle away after.

 

In terms of the ground you may find... mostly over consolidated boulder clays, good ground. Occasionally if close to the coast then you may have what are called raised marine beds, these are sands and gravels that were left behind when the sea leavels were higher after the glaciers melted.. look up last Loch Lomond ice age etc. Now you also may have a bit of mining. Follow link below for a play about.

 

https://mapapps2.bgs.ac.uk/coalauthority/home.html

 

Your Cruck frame. Spot on. Don't know how much you know about these but even if you know a bit go back and look at first principles and how they work. The key parts are the cruck blade, collar beam and arch brace. They are essentialy how a modern portal braced frame is assembled.

 

Have a look here at a knee braced cold formed steel frame.. see the similarity?

 

https://www.capitalsteelbuildings.co.uk/gallery-agricultural/

 

If you can get a handle on how the main frame works then you are up and running. The other parts of the frame are there to add extra stiffness to the main members and act as a carrier for your roof and bales. The main thing for me to say.. hey the roof is permenant, provides lateral stiffness against wind loading parallel to the ridge and we need some other logitudinal bracing in the direction of the ridge within the walls. Try and put all this on the warm side of the insulation envelope.

 

Then introduce the bales.. really they are just like rendered wool / wattle / carrier boards. The main thing is if you get it wrong with the bales you don't lose your shirt while getting something that will last many generations.

 

Not sure how far on you are but what info do you have at the moment? Don't rush to trial pitting before you have got all the other stuff in place, no point in just digging randomly before you have got the planning sorted and the footprint established. You may accidentally dig a pit right under a frame base, soften the ground and cause yourself a problem. Sometime pits can be targeted so you can also use them to gather info on soakaways etc.. get more bang for your buck.

 

All the best and keep us posted.

 

 

[Walkaholic]

On 03/04/2022 at 22:11, Gus Potter said:

Delighted for you, great part of the country. I'm not far away from you.

 

As others have said planning is to do with what it looks like from the outside not what is behind the facade. However the planners may be quite interested in what you are doing as they will may want to learn from what you are doing for experience. BC will also I think be interested for the same reasons, when you get to that stage. My advice is to engage and embrace.. you may get a pleasant surprise, if not you can battle away after.

 

In terms of the ground you may find... mostly over consolidated boulder clays, good ground. Occasionally if close to the coast then you may have what are called raised marine beds, these are sands and gravels that were left behind when the sea leavels were higher after the glaciers melted.. look up last Loch Lomond ice age etc. Now you also may have a bit of mining. Follow link below for a play about.

 

https://mapapps2.bgs.ac.uk/coalauthority/home.html

 

Your Cruck frame. Spot on. Don't know how much you know about these but even if you know a bit go back and look at first principles and how they work. The key parts are the cruck blade, collar beam and arch brace. They are essentialy how a modern portal braced frame is assembled.

 

Have a look here at a knee braced cold formed steel frame.. see the similarity?

 

https://www.capitalsteelbuildings.co.uk/gallery-agricultural/

 

If you can get a handle on how the main frame works then you are up and running. The other parts of the frame are there to add extra stiffness to the main members and act as a carrier for your roof and bales. The main thing for me to say.. hey the roof is permenant, provides lateral stiffness against wind loading parallel to the ridge and we need some other logitudinal bracing in the direction of the ridge within the walls. Try and put all this on the warm side of the insulation envelope.

 

Then introduce the bales.. really they are just like rendered wool / wattle / carrier boards. The main thing is if you get it wrong with the bales you don't lose your shirt while getting something that will last many generations.

 

Not sure how far on you are but what info do you have at the moment? Don't rush to trial pitting before you have got all the other stuff in place, no point in just digging randomly before you have got the planning sorted and the footprint established. You may accidentally dig a pit right under a frame base, soften the ground and cause yourself a problem. Sometime pits can be targeted so you can also use them to gather info on soakaways etc.. get more bang for your buck.

 

All the best and keep us posted.

 

 

Thanks for this excellent information Gus, and apologies for the delayed response, as I've been away for a few days. (I'll be going away again next week on a clay plastering course - exciting times!)

 

Interesting what you say about the trial pitting - I thought doing a land investigation would help establish the best position for the house. The plot is about 10 miles inland and it hasn't been built on before. It was formerly part of a large estate, and is described as reasonably good agricultural land (3.2), so it's likely to be a mixture of clays. There are no watercourses running through it and there are houses built nearby. Also it's pretty flat which is always helpful!

 

At the moment I'm living near the coast and we do get battered by the westerly winds. I should probably spend some time at the plot with my anenometer checking the prevailing wind, which will probably be westerly.

 

I'll be getting help from Phil Christopher who has experience of working on cruck frame buildings so I think the main challenge will be convincing the planners. They usually like houses to be designed according to the "vernacular" but the vernacular from what century? Which time period are they trying to recapture? Hopefully they'll be open-minded!

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

5 hours ago, Walkaholic said:

the vernacular from what century?

A very good point. I have had this argument with planners (fortunately in principle, in a discussion group, not about my own projects).

They really don't get it, and what they mean is 'to fit in with old buildings around the area'.

In the case that bothered me, a developer had stuck bits of timber on new blockwork to resemble Elizabethan houses.

It should mean, using whatever is the most efficient way based on currently available materials.  But that is not what they want.

 

On the other hand, many councils state that they want 'vernacular' OR exemplary modern design, so worth checking the design statements in the local plan.

[craig]

@SuperJohnG may be able to help recommend someone in your area for the soil survey.

[SuperJohnG]

Hi im in East Ayrshire ( Stewarton) 

 

Straw bales sounds ambitious and brave for West Coast where it is always pishin it down. I'm building a SIPS house and that was far enough off the beaten track for me.

 

By soil survey do you mean for test pits to check ground bearing strength? 

 

If so...get a man with a digger pay him 100 quid to dig a few holes while an SE looks on. But dint rush yourself to do that yet till you make a few decisions around the design type. 

[Walkaholic]

On 13/04/2022 at 00:01, SuperJohnG said:

Hi im in East Ayrshire ( Stewarton) 

 

Straw bales sounds ambitious and brave for West Coast where it is always pishin it down. I'm building a SIPS house and that was far enough off the beaten track for me.

 

By soil survey do you mean for test pits to check ground bearing strength? 

 

If so...get a man with a digger pay him 100 quid to dig a few holes while an SE looks on. But dint rush yourself to do that yet till you make a few decisions around the design type. 

 

That's right, test pits. Great advice, thanks!