A wayleave question: Underground HV power cable

[ProDave]

As some of you know, as well as owning the house we have just built, we still own our previous house 2 doors down the same road.

 

A thought provoking letter landed on the doormat today, actually addressed to us at the old house (it will be interesting if we also get one at the new address)

 

The nub of it, is there is a new windfarm being built about 7 miles away, out of sight from us.  This letter relates to the underground HV connection cable to the substation.

 

The gist of the letter is to open dialogue with "local residents and stakeholders affected by the new underground HV cable"

 

We are a small rural road, with about 12 houses, most of them along just one side of the road.  To get to the substation, the cable must pass under somebody's garden.  I have not seen any plans so I don't know if they actually want to lay the cable under our garden.

 

Another wind farm a few years ago faced the same issue, and they routed their cable under the garden of our other neighbour.  Given that has blighted part of his garden already, to me the logical place for the new cable is just next to the existing one through the same neighbours garden.

 

My guess is they will be having discussions with more than one property to find a route.  I don't think our garden is particularly practical as what may look like a bare bit of garden alongside the house contains the septic tank, a pumping station and all the pipes that go with it.  Plus of course I don't actually want it there as we will be selling the house at some point and it would most likely put some buyers off.

 

So how to proceed?

 

I presume I really need to give them our contact details and enter discussion with them?

 

Can I just say NO?  If they really wanted to put it through our garden and I said NO could they force it?

[jamieled]

Is this cable part of the wind farm development or does it relate to the DNO's connection to it (i.e. SSEN?). If it's the windfarm I don't think the developers have any statutory powers so they will aim to use money to persuade a landowner as they can't do much else.

 

If it's SSEN, then they will try negotiation first, but can (theoretically) apply for a necessary wayleave or easement as they have statutory powers to do so. That is not their preferred approach though.

[ProDave]

The agent who sent the letter is seeking permission to pass our details to Scottish Energy Networks. which sounds like a DNO, but SSE is the DNO here.

 

So if they really do want to put it under our garden, how much would they likely offer?  Presumably a case of don't accept the first offer?  And If i still said no, and they forced it through under statutory powers would I then get nothing?

[jamieled]

There are standard payments set but I don't know where to find them. We have a number of poles carrying a 33kv oh power line and we get a set amount per pole per year. It's basically chicken feed and given the choice I would undoubtedly try to avoid having any kit on land I owned. I doubt the DNO wants loads of bespoke agreements with different people. That said there may be leeway if you effectively own a ransom type strip.

 

It's a complicated subject area and I can't claim to be highly knowledgeable about it. One thing I would mention is that when we were negotiating the wayleave with SSEN (it was an existing line with no wayleave when we bought the land) they were obliged to cover our costs for obtaining professional advice so we didn't get shafted. We were free to choose who we wanted to do this. If you do end up in discussion it would be worth considering this.

[ProDave]

Thanks.  It's early days, the letter used the phrase "your property might be affected" which is what suggests to me they are looking for the easiest way to get the cable past our little line of houses.

 

If it ends up along side the other cable next door to me, that will be an outcome I will be happy with.

[Temp]

I think this might be relevan? May only apply to big wind farms?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/granting-a-necessary-compulsory-electricity-wayleave-guidance-for-applicants-and-landowner-and-or-occupiers

 

Quote

 

1.2 Licence  holders  need  permission  to  install  their  electric  lines  and  associated equipment  (such  as  poles,  pylons,  staywires  and  transformers)  on,  over  or  under private  land  and  to  have  access  to  that  land  for  the  purposes  of  inspecting, maintaining,  repairing,  adjusting,  altering,  replacing  or  removing  the  line  or equipment.   Commonly,  they  do  this  through  negotiation  of  a  contractual arrangement  with  the  landowner  and/or  the  occupier  of  the  land;  this  is  called  a voluntary  wayleave.    Licence  holders  may  also  obtain  a  voluntary  easement,  which, unlike  a  voluntary  wayleave,  is  usually  permanent  (because  it  confers  a  right  over the  land  itself,  rather  than  one  which  can  only  be  enforced  against  a  particular  owner or occupier of  the  land).  

 

 1.3 However,  where  an  agreement  cannot  be  reached  through  negotiation,  the licence  holders,  who  have  a  public  service  role  to  undertake,  have  access  to compulsory  procedures.    The  electricity  licence  holders  may  promote  a  Compulsory Purchase  Order  under  Schedule  3  to  the  1989  Act  or  apply  for  a  “necessary” (compulsory)  wayleave  under  Schedule  4  to the  1989  Act.   

 

 

[saveasteading]

I imagine that it could badly affect the house value. There are enough people with misguided fears about the effect of pylons, wind farms, G4 signal etc, that some would be put off, and you generally need multiple interest in a property to get the best price.

 

So the value could be tens of thousands on top of your own living with it and disruption. £50k?

[ProDave]

20 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I imagine that it could badly affect the house value. There are enough people with misguided fears about the effect of pylons, wind farms, G4 signal etc, that some would be put off, and you generally need multiple interest in a property to get the best price.

 

So the value could be tens of thousands on top of your own living with it and disruption. £50k?

Assuming the DNO just want the cheapest way to route the cable, I am convinced putting it next to the existing one would offer that.  That route is across a flat garden that is just grass with no services underneath.  If they chose our garden, it would be picking it's way between the septic tank, pumping station and drain pipes, then up a steep bank to reach the field, which then has the obstacle of the drainage soakaway under the field to navigate past.

 

The more i think about it, the more I am convinced they have to show due diligence and consider several options and will probably draw the same conclusion to route it the same way.

 

As a footnote, the existing cable crosses the bottom end of a neighbours large garden.  A garden I am sure would make a building plot one day, but of course having that HV cable under it, now restricts where you could build, and limits the ease with which you could perhaps one day build another house.

[dpmiller]

how close can this kind of cable run together?

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

how close can this kind of cable run together?

I don't know but I am sure there is space in next doors garden, unless it has to be a silly distance from the other cable.

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, dpmiller said:

how close can this kind of cable run together?

I vaguely remember it being a few metres, but could well be wrong. Whether that was for a safe working distance (which must be sensible) or something to do with electricles I don't know either.

[recoveringbuilder]

Don’t expect to get very much from them in terms of compensation, when we gave them notice to remove the cables flying over a plot they consulted with the next door landowner as they needed to access the pylon in his field and wanted to underground from it across his driveway then into the plot however he was not having it unless they agreed to resurface his driveway with tar( it’s currently gravel) they wouldn’t do it and said they wouldn’t pay to have it done, they ended up having to take a much more complicated route involving other landowners who didn’t ask for anything.

[ProDave]

Okay a bit of a development on this.

 

I have spoken to neighbours in the road, nobody else has been approached.

 

I had a phone call today.  I tried to ask if they were considering other routes, they were very evasive only saying "your property is the direct route"

 

So it looks like they have their eye on my garden.

 

Next step is they are going to make an appointment for a "non invasive survey"  I am going to use that as an opportunity to point out all the difficulties they would face trying to route an underground HV cable this way, like the septic tank various drainage pipes and the holding tank and pumping station in that bit of garden, and then once they pass through the garden to the field, they then meet the drainage soakaway under the field behind us (with a deed of servitude from the land owner to allow it to be there)

 

Hopefully that will put them off enough to go looking for a different route and I will question why they are not taking the route of the previous underground HV cable through a different and very much easier garden.

 

Because this house is tenanted I have informed the tenant they are sniffing about and she will be involved when the surveyors come.

 

I will keep you updated.

[ProDave]

Okay the plot thickens on this.

 

Today I have received some communication including a plan of where the proposed cable would go.  They have messed up their addresses, as although it is addressed to us at our old address (that we still own and is tenanted) the property they have outlined on their plan is in fact our new house.  I have written to them to clarify this address mix up.

 

In one way that is better news because I feared having a cable underground in the old property might make it harder to sell when the time comes.

 

On the other hand I am not entirely sure I want this cable under the garden of our new house. It poses limitations on what you can do with the land, e.g you can't build anything within a certain distance of the cable, and if we ever decide to sell it could still put off prospective buyers. 

[Tosh]

As mentioned above they'll negotiate first before laying it on heavy. I worked on a large project where we had BT supplying leased lines to mobile masts that didn't have any line-of-sight option. We often hit 3rd party wayleave issues. BT would go in softly to begin with before pulling in the big guns if it wasn't going as they wanted i.e. compulsory orders. However they were reasonable when it came to agreeing the actual route.

 

Something to consider, which we often found, was that the landowner had often given in to a wayleave for power only to find out a few months later that BT needed a wayleave for their fibre/copper so their land had to be dug up twice. I'd imagine there must be some sort of comms infrastructure for these turbines e.g. data recording, system monitoring etc so you may want to ask the question during their 'survey' who the turbine companies acquisition agent is and contact them to try and get clarification. Of course they may just use a 3/4G data station but no harm in asking.

[ProDave]

At the moment, I have agreed to meeting a surveyor on site.  This is my opportunity to find out exactly what they want and where they want to put it, and also to point out all the things on the plot that might make it impossible, like the treatment plant.  If at that point they decide our route is not viable and they go away to pester another home owner I will be happy.

 

I think if it gets beyond that, and they really want our route, I will be seeking professional help to make sure what i agree to is correct and what they pay me is also reasonable.

[Gus Potter]

33 minutes ago, ProDave said:

At the moment, I have agreed to meeting a surveyor on site.  This is my opportunity to find out exactly what they want and where they want to put it, and also to point out all the things on the plot that might make it impossible, like the treatment plant.  If at that point they decide our route is not viable and they go away to pester another home owner I will be happy.

 

I think if it gets beyond that, and they really want our route, I will be seeking professional help to make sure what i agree to is correct and what they pay me is also reasonable.

Dave.. Am I right in concluding that the cable may be routed through your old place? If so then is the reason for holding onto the old place a means of generating income / investment or does it hold sentimental value?

 

Either way often everything has a price. If sentimental, say it was left to you by a relative, then they would have maybe done so in the hope that you would derive maximum benefit from it. It can be reconciled this way? You almost have a responsibilty to make the best of it to pass on / preserve the family wealth for future generations?

 

To start with you may want to discuss with an open mind, make sure you say that everthing is without predudice. Open a friendly dialogue with them, get to know them and the project manager. They may well let things slip about their other options and costs. Use your local knowledge / grapevine. Ask them questions.. safe distances, maintenance zones and so on.. often they open up.. they are not being unprofessional  just talking about their job at a technical level.. it will come out in the wash eventually anyway. Best to learn now for free.

 

Having seen the early development of the wind farms in the Borders I would take a leaf out the farmers hand book. You will find very few farmers that go in hard at the beginning. They listen first, nod in friendly way, engage and find out as much as they can for free..they then think it over and absolutely extract the last pound of flesh just at end..or.. they just say NO and get off my farm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

8 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Dave.. Am I right in concluding that the cable may be routed through your old place? If so then is the reason for holding onto the old place a means of generating income / investment or does it hold sentimental value?

No it was a mix up with addresses.  the initial letter was addressed to me at the old house but the plan shows they want to put the cable through the garden of the new house.  Their surveyor has not impressed me with his skills so far.

 

the old house is let only because the market was dead when we wanted to sell and letting it was a least bad option.  It still needs to sell and fairly soon now, we want to retire, so the prospect of a cable under that garden that might deter buyers does not hold much appeal.

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

To start with you may want to discuss with an open mind, make sure you say that everthing is without predudice. Open a friendly dialogue with them, get to know them and the project manager. They may well let things slip about their other options and costs. Use your local knowledge / grapevine. Ask them questions.. safe distances, maintenance zones and so on.. often they open up.. they are not being unprofessional  just talking about their job at a technical level.. it will come out in the wash eventually anyway. Best to learn now for free.

 

Having seen the early development of the wind farms in the Borders I would take a leaf out the farmers hand book. You will find very few farmers that go in hard at the beginning. They listen first, nod in friendly way, engage and find out as much as they can for free..they then think it over and absolutely extract the last pound of flesh just at end..or.. they just say NO and get off my farm.

 

That's where I am, having a friendly discussion, finding out what they want and if it indeed even possible with out plot.   I am not about to sign anything without a LOT of due dilligence.

[Gus Potter]

Dave.. it's almost blasphemy but have you checked out the farming forum... you may be already a closet member?

 

They have a lot of good stuff on this, you need to rake about but it is there. They have a good few Scottish members that talk about wayleaves, money etc and the law in Scotland.

 

I know your heart lies with BH.

 

 

[ProDave]

Okay another little twist to this.

 

SWMBO and I had almost resigned ourselves that this was going to happen.  SWMBO was less against it than me providing the compensation was a "useful" sum of money. At the moment we have no idea what it might be.

 

I have now spoken to all the neighbours in the street and we are the only ones that have been contacted so far.  But the last one I spoke to this morning is our direct neighbour who already has the cable from another wind farm under his garden.  Surprisingly he said, without being prompted, for me to give the comany his details and he would be happy to have it under his garden alongside the other one.

 

So now I am torn between just going down that route and suggesting they contact him, or hold out a bit longer to see just what they are going to offer and if not a "useful" amount then suggest they try next door?

[ProDave]

This had gone quiet for a few weeks, but it is still ongoing, they are now wanting to come and survey my garden.

[ProDave]

Well a probably final update on this.  The surveyors did come and look at our garden, they were not happy with the number of obstructions they would have to negotiate, surprisingly it was the trees that bothered them the most.  I did mention to them, that my neighbour might be willing to have the cable under his land.

 

Well yesterday, 6 months later, the surveyors were back surveying his garden, so it now looks likely that is where it will go.  If he is happy then I think a satisfactory outcome.

[Ferdinand]

I missed this entirely, but then I've ben distracted the least year or two.

 

My comments would be be clear what your objective is - do you want the money, or the peace?

 

And:

 

1 - Yes to professional advice. Possibly prelim advice first.

 

2 - If you want to make it more difficult, get Planning to build something there and that will boost the value. Ideally a dwelling, but a garden room or garage may be an extra lever.

 

Near me there is a very strangely shaped garage put in right against his boundary 30 years ago by someone who wanted to make development of part of the rec behind his house more difficult, as the County Council were sniffing around for playing fields to sell off.

 

F