So we are going to committee..

[deancatherine09]

After a nearly 5 month wait for Natural England to agree our nitrate mitigation solution the planning officer has finally concluded his report. Although we have known since October he intended to recommend permission.

 

Despite showing the immediate neighbors all our plans and them raising no issues, several of them of course, vehemently objected. Even had some objections from people who live the other end of the village.

 

Therefore due to number of objections (6 initial and then 3 re-objections post adjustments) we are headed to committee with a planning officer recommendation for approval. Our architect has suggested that there would be little benefit in us speaking at the meeting as the planning officer is supporting our application, but we are really not sure whether having that personal touch would help? The architect suggested if we opted to speak it might open us up to questions, but we are not really sure what type of questions they might ask (the build / relationship with neighbours / intentions, etc)?

 

Any recommendations for those who have been involved in committee meetings? What should we expect, and what can/ should we do to give ourselves the best chance of this being voted through for permission?

 

 

[CharlieKLP]

They rarely ask questions don’t worry. I found with planning committee meetings it was political and pointless. I appealed their decision easily. 
 

as for the nitrate situation, have you looked into paying for a reed bed or something like that. I had a few clients fall foul of ‘nitrate requirements’ which were really unfair and imo, incompetent on the case of planners and local councils.

 

although I’ve never found ‘objections’ counted for much in reality, you seem to have been hard done by.

 

I had 80 objections once, and not committee. Got approved.

Edited March 4, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[Gone West]

48 minutes ago, deancatherine09 said:

Any recommendations for those who have been involved in committee meetings?

We went to the Planning Committee after our application was refused twice, as we had Parish Council support and support from our District Councillor. I spoke for the three minutes allowed pointing out their errors and the Planning Department was overruled unanimously. The Head of Planning was furious and we were elated. We weren't asked any questions.

[Temp]

I've sat in on a few and they were a joke. Two or three members were elderly and raised objections that weren't valid reasons for refusal. The chairman had to keep intervening to keep discussion in bounds. On at least one occasion an application was voted down without a consensus as to why it should be refused. The poor PO had to go off and try to think up some reasons after the meeting.

 

There is nothing to stop you attending just to listen. If it sounds like discussion is going wrong way you can try and get permission from the chair to speak. He might not allow it as the public aren't meant to speak without notifying the chairman in advance but I have seen it happen. Once the chair actually asked if the owner was present and allowed him to clarify a point. 

 

[CharlieKLP]

50 minutes ago, Temp said:

I've sat in on a few and they were a joke. Two or three members were elderly and raised objections that weren't valid reasons for refusal. The chairman had to keep intervening to keep discussion in bounds. On at least one occasion an application was voted down without a consensus as to why it should be refused. The poor PO had to go off and try to think up some reasons after the meeting.

 

There is nothing to stop you attending just to listen. If it sounds like discussion is going wrong way you can try and get permission from the chair to speak. He might not allow it as the public aren't meant to speak without notifying the chairman in advance but I have seen it happen. Once the chair actually asked if the owner was present and allowed him to clarify a point. 

 

 

yes exactly this!  it’s like your own personal “Handforth Parish Council” live show!
 

read the standing orders!!! Read them and understand them!!! You have no power here Jackie Weaver! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[Temp]

One member reminded me of this character from the carry on films. Slightly batty....

 

[CharlieKLP]

I remember a similar lady stand there and claim one of those little electricity substation thingies would give her diabetes. 
 

I mean I don’t like them either to be fair, but they definitely don’t give you diabetes. 

[joe90]

We went to committee and it was a joke, my wife explained our plan to fit in and the efforts we made, next our neighbour spoke and told lies, which we were not allowed to question, even a committee member I knew was originally on our side would not look me in the eye and they all voted against our proposal. I then went to appeal (myself) and we won hands down, the inspector actually informed the council in the appeal decision that they were not abiding by their own policies. I am not saying all committees are the same but our area had a reputation for being very difficult to deal with. A close neighbour told me it was because I didn’t give them a big enough bribe 😱. It also depends on whether the objections are valid, one neighbour objected on several issues but each one was thrown out by the inspector as invalid.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, deancatherine09 said:

been involved in committee meetings?

This is how it goes. (I have been at many planning meetings, in 4 different councils.

Spoken at 2 on behalf of our client, OR recommended our client speaks rather than me.

Spoken at 2 on behalf of the parish council.

 

If they will allow you to speak as well as your representative, IF you are confident of yourself and of the content being interesting, then  I recommend you do so.

 

The planners do the hard work and make the recommendations, but can be overturned by councillors whether they are sensible or not. This doesnt apply if the councillors' objections are invalid, but can come down to opinion.

The councillors turn up and chat, and most look at the agenda for the first time. They will vote according to either  going along with the councillor who backs it, (or against it) and the general feeling of the meeting.

The presence of the applicant can make a big difference, and only by speaking do they know you are : there, a genuine applicant not a developer, care.

You have 3 minutes which is like a moment. write down your points, edit, edit again. Read actually out loud and with voice projection and then edit again.

 

Better to make one point well than fill the time for the sake of it.   For example, just say how important this is to you and your family and how you have done whatever special things to make it sensitive to the area, and sit down.

 

the objectors might send someone to speak: all the more reason that you do.

 

It is good to get your own councillor to speak for you if you can. Be mindful though that they also represent the objectors.

If they are prepared to, then normally another councillor will second it, and their mates go along with it as they don't really care about your area.

 

They will not ask you any questions: the meetings do not run like that. Any questions are to the planning officer.

 

Even if you don't speak, be there and sit at the back and wonder at democracy in action...and perhaps despair.

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by saveasteading

[deancatherine09]

Just wanted to extend my profound thanks for all the replies and useful info.

 

Both my partner and I spoke at committee last night - jointly. We spoke about our motivations, how we had made efforts to integrate the proposal into the neighbourhood and the compromises we had made. We also included some brief information about the sustainability of the house we are proposing.

 

Neighbours, parish council and local ward councillor all rallied together and spoke against the proposal. At times their behaviour felt like playground bullies ganging up on us - the 'newbies' to the village, not helped by the fact we are a good 10-20 years younger than them and trying to do something a bit different. They told lies and waffled on about drainage for a while which isn't even a planning matter. The local councillor, which I assume does this a lot, was actually very poor at speaking and did talk about a lot of non planning matters, which was a surprise. Even said the only reason the original planning permission was granted was because the old owner was disabled. That was quickly shot down by the officer. The most obvious and upsetting lie they told was that we hadn't even consulted them about the proposal, when we took round the plans, stood in their kitchen and went through them - with no adverse comments received. I guess they must have developed selective amnesia 🙄

 

One of the committee members was very negative about the proposal, but luckily the rest of them all spoke up in support and on the vote we had 1 abstain and the rest support for permission.

 

All in all, a incredibly stressful process that I do not ever wish to repeat. I think I read a little nugget on here a while back 'you only find out how unhinged your neighbours are when you apply for planning permission'. i can sure say I 100% agree with that now!

 

Onwards and upwards with our project now!

Edited March 16, 2022 by deancatherine09

[saveasteading]

Well done. Your faith in the planners restored?

Think how this is for the planning officers. They have this all the time and have to withstand abuse and noise from all sides, and usually someone is unhappy.

 

6 minutes ago, deancatherine09 said:

The local councillor, which I assume does this a lot, was actually very poor at speaking and did talk about a lot of non planning matters, which was a surprise

You get the choice of 2 or more councillors every 4 years, each selected by a committee of hard-line activists for agreeing to what they want. Then we get to choose one. We don't get to say they are all useless, unless there is a chance of an independent.

Then they don't get much training, and can refuse to take it.

 

I have been at a meeting where the planner repeatedly had to point out that they were only agreeing detail and that outline permission was already awarded, yet one councillor kept saying the should be no building. Officer and Chairman prevailed, eventually.

 

And at one of mine, the Officer kept pointing out that the town needed this proposal for the Plan, and there was no other option.  When the vote came, they somehow managed to 'not count' when the vote was going the 'wrong' way. pointed out a few more key facts. Approved on third attempt by one.

 

So you did well. Do you think that your attendance and statements were crucial?

[deancatherine09]

To be fair, I think our planning officer and the department have been pretty good. They have been hard to get hold of and did cause a frustrating delay after our nitrates information was approved by NE but their report was very thorough and they did multiple site visits (neighbours, our plot). They were very supportive last night. The house that were doing the complaining about the ridge height recently demolished the 5m tall chalet bungalow on their site and built a HUGE 9m tall house - and during the speakers and debate the planning officer left the slide up which showed the before and after for their house. The irony of him standing there with that in the background complaining about our ridge height going up was amusing. Not sure if that was the planner cleverly trying to undermine what he was saying or just a co-incidence. 

 

I do think our attendance and statements helped, whether they were crucial I will never know. One of the councillors in particular kept referring to what we had said in our speech in her supporting statements - especially around us making compromising amendments and the sustainability aspect, which the planning officer didn't touch on so she only knew that from what we said.

 

The parish council and ward councillor both said that we should build the house as per previous permission, but then went on to say that the drainage / parking on the site wouldn't support any new dwelling. There were a lot of contradictions in their objections. Luckily the planning councillors picked them up on that.

 

I do actually think the planning committee did a good job. Obviously I am biased on our proposal, but we did stay and listen to the other two application discussions and they made a good call, including overturning a officers recommendation of refusal on one of them. 

[saveasteading]

Good that you listened to the remaining items, and got the vibe of other applications.  I bet the 'losing' neighbours walked out after yours.

 

For interest, did they have the pro and con sitting apart or all mixed? This varies by council and number of attendees.

[deancatherine09]

40 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Good that you listened to the remaining items, and got the vibe of other applications.  I bet the 'losing' neighbours walked out after yours.

 

For interest, did they have the pro and con sitting apart or all mixed? This varies by council and number of attendees.

 

They all immediately got up and left 🙂

 

They had it all mixed. We were first there and sat on the front row, they came in and sat on the front row other side. I didn't glance over there once throughout the entire meeting - it was pretty awkward to say the least!

[flanagaj]

Quote

 I think I read a little nugget on here a while back 'you only find out how unhinged your neighbours are when you apply for planning permission'. 

My wife and I have recently had that pleasure 😞   Some folk certainly have a way with welcoming new folk to the neighbourhood!   We have this joyous prospect in mid March or April.   

ps - are there any rules regarding using a stone saw on a Sunday?

[kandgmitchell]

On 16/03/2022 at 13:59, deancatherine09 said:

it was pretty awkward to say the least!

Just think of the joy of living amongst them soon!

 

I had a planning meeting where our scheme at the end of a cul-de-sac came up and I did my three minute bit. A neighbour whose house was opposite said his bit and he objected because delivery lorries would use his driveway to turn around. The chairman asked me about this and I explained all turning could be done within the site. The scheme was approved.

 

Within days, despite explaining everything to them, a contractor used the neighbour's drive to turn around and stalled his all terrain forklift on it and couldn't re-start it.... you just couldn't make it up!

[sgt_woulds]

4 hours ago, flanagaj said:

My wife and I have recently had that pleasure 😞   Some folk certainly have a way with welcoming new folk to the neighbourhood!   We have this joyous prospect in mid March or April.   

ps - are there any rules regarding using a stone saw on a Sunday?

 

 

For paid workers:

 

The Control of Pollution Act 1974:

 

The general guideline across most parts of the UK is that noisy construction work should be limited to:

• Monday to Friday: 8:00 am to 6:00 pm
• Saturday: 8:00 am to 1:00 pm
• Sundays and Public Holidays: No noisy work is usually allowed

In most cases, building work on Sundays is prohibited or heavily restricted to quieter tasks that won’t disturb the peace of residential neighbourhoods.

 

While most noisy construction is banned on Sundays, there are a few exemptions:

• Emergency repairs: This can be carried out even on a Sunday if work is required to address an immediate safety issue (e.g., fixing a burst pipe or repairing a damaged roof).
• Essential public works: In rare cases, time-sensitive public works projects may be granted permission to continue on a Sunday.
• Special permissions: Contractors may apply for a special permit from the council to carry out work on a Sunday, but this is typically only granted under specific circumstances, such as avoiding a major disruption or completing essential repairs.

 

For DIY works:

 

yes, you can do noisy DIY on a Sunday if you are considerate and limit the activity. However, your local authority may take a different view if your DIY is extensive and could fall within the description of construction activity.

 

Only an inconsiderate arsehole would conduct noisy works on a Sunday unless out of dire necessity and of very short duration.

 

If necessary, it also good practice to discuss with neighbours and ensure noisy works don't start until after 10am, (to allow for a lie-in) but consideration for others seems to be as rare as common sense these days.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

4 hours ago, flanagaj said:

ps - are there any rules regarding using a stone saw on a Sunday?

 

Yes.  Don't.  Do it during normal working hours and use dust suppression.

[flanagaj]

20 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

Only an inconsiderate arsehole would oppose a planning application that is in no way detrimental to them or their property.

 

 

 

 

[sgt_woulds]

Agreed - see my comment re- common sense... 🙂

 

My dad's generation would say 'don't lower yourself to their level'.

 

Are they your only neighbour?

 

 

[flanagaj]

22 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

Agreed - see my comment re- common sense... 🙂

 

My dad's generation would say 'don't lower yourself to their level'.

 

Are they your only neighbour?

 

 

Unfortunately, a number of them have ganged up and submitted objections.  The objection letters are all from the same template, eg, the woman we bought the plot from.

[Big Jimbo]

2 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

Unfortunately, a number of them have ganged up and submitted objections.  The objection letters are all from the same template, eg, the woman we bought the plot from.

I think that can be quite common. My neighbour will canvass all the people in the lane, so you will get people 300meters away objecting. Just remember, most of what they will say will not be material planning considerations. She even goes as far as employing a planning consultant to object. Gets into the ear of the Local councillor (who then calls it in) and the head of the Parish council. They also object, and that also causes an automatic call in. 

I think the biggest fear is that the planning officer can tend to get a bit of a wobble, when confronted with so much objection, even when most of it will be rubbish. He or she can sometimes be seen to just take the easy route and recommend refusal in his report. The committee won't have studied your proposal, and it is quite unusual for committee members to go against the planning officer. The stats are something like 94% follow the guidance of the planning officer.

If you can get a recommend from the planning officer, you will be in the best position possible. That's why the "How did a planning officer, get planning permission" thread was so incredibly good. He covered absolutely everything in all the policies that the planning officer would have to consider when making his appraisal. By doing that, he made the planning officers job much easier, while making it almost impossible for the planning officer to not support the application. It is the best application that I have ever seen. That's why the importance of a fantastic planning consultant is so important. (I have never found One) 

I would try and get hold of the planning officer (virtually impossible) and try and find out if he is going to recommend granting or refusal. If he is going to recommend refusal to the planning committee, try and find out why. If you can get those matters resolved to his satisfaction, you might be able to get him to recommend approval. I fear that if the planning officer recommends a refusal to the committee, than that is exactly what you will get. Best of luck

[saveasteading]

54 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

the importance of a fantastic planning consultant is so important. (I have never found One) 

They exist. The ones I used were sole traders, not employees in a bigger firm. They had been planning officers, knew the system, knew the planners. They made it easy for the planning officer.

[flanagaj]

13 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

I think that can be quite common. My neighbour will canvass all the people in the lane, so you will get people 300meters away objecting. Just remember, most of what they will say will not be material planning considerations. She even goes as far as employing a planning consultant to object. Gets into the ear of the Local councillor (who then calls it in) and the head of the Parish council. They also object, and that also causes an automatic call in. 

I think the biggest fear is that the planning officer can tend to get a bit of a wobble, when confronted with so much objection, even when most of it will be rubbish. He or she can sometimes be seen to just take the easy route and recommend refusal in his report. The committee won't have studied your proposal, and it is quite unusual for committee members to go against the planning officer. The stats are something like 94% follow the guidance of the planning officer.

If you can get a recommend from the planning officer, you will be in the best position possible. That's why the "How did a planning officer, get planning permission" thread was so incredibly good. He covered absolutely everything in all the policies that the planning officer would have to consider when making his appraisal. By doing that, he made the planning officers job much easier, while making it almost impossible for the planning officer to not support the application. It is the best application that I have ever seen. That's why the importance of a fantastic planning consultant is so important. (I have never found One) 

I would try and get hold of the planning officer (virtually impossible) and try and find out if he is going to recommend granting or refusal. If he is going to recommend refusal to the planning committee, try and find out why. If you can get those matters resolved to his satisfaction, you might be able to get him to recommend approval. I fear that if the planning officer recommends a refusal to the committee, than that is exactly what you will get. Best of luck

The planning officer has only divulged "I don’t have a problem with the principle of the development. Until we get all of the consultations in I am not able to confirm that this would result in a final positive recommendation however I would anticipate that if problems arise they could be considered and amendments could be made to overcome them.". 

 

So, we'll just have to wait and see.  There hasn't been any objections from any of the associated departments who are consulted.  Just those of the nimby neighbours.  Who are only objecting on irrelevant matters.  

[SteamyTea]