So we are going to committee..

[deancatherine09]

After a nearly 5 month wait for Natural England to agree our nitrate mitigation solution the planning officer has finally concluded his report. Although we have known since October he intended to recommend permission.

 

Despite showing the immediate neighbors all our plans and them raising no issues, several of them of course, vehemently objected. Even had some objections from people who live the other end of the village.

 

Therefore due to number of objections (6 initial and then 3 re-objections post adjustments) we are headed to committee with a planning officer recommendation for approval. Our architect has suggested that there would be little benefit in us speaking at the meeting as the planning officer is supporting our application, but we are really not sure whether having that personal touch would help? The architect suggested if we opted to speak it might open us up to questions, but we are not really sure what type of questions they might ask (the build / relationship with neighbours / intentions, etc)?

 

Any recommendations for those who have been involved in committee meetings? What should we expect, and what can/ should we do to give ourselves the best chance of this being voted through for permission?

 

 

[CharlieKLP]

They rarely ask questions don’t worry. I found with planning committee meetings it was political and pointless. I appealed their decision easily. 
 

as for the nitrate situation, have you looked into paying for a reed bed or something like that. I had a few clients fall foul of ‘nitrate requirements’ which were really unfair and imo, incompetent on the case of planners and local councils.

 

although I’ve never found ‘objections’ counted for much in reality, you seem to have been hard done by.

 

I had 80 objections once, and not committee. Got approved.

Edited March 4, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[Gone West]

48 minutes ago, deancatherine09 said:

Any recommendations for those who have been involved in committee meetings?

We went to the Planning Committee after our application was refused twice, as we had Parish Council support and support from our District Councillor. I spoke for the three minutes allowed pointing out their errors and the Planning Department was overruled unanimously. The Head of Planning was furious and we were elated. We weren't asked any questions.

[Temp]

I've sat in on a few and they were a joke. Two or three members were elderly and raised objections that weren't valid reasons for refusal. The chairman had to keep intervening to keep discussion in bounds. On at least one occasion an application was voted down without a consensus as to why it should be refused. The poor PO had to go off and try to think up some reasons after the meeting.

 

There is nothing to stop you attending just to listen. If it sounds like discussion is going wrong way you can try and get permission from the chair to speak. He might not allow it as the public aren't meant to speak without notifying the chairman in advance but I have seen it happen. Once the chair actually asked if the owner was present and allowed him to clarify a point. 

 

[CharlieKLP]

50 minutes ago, Temp said:

I've sat in on a few and they were a joke. Two or three members were elderly and raised objections that weren't valid reasons for refusal. The chairman had to keep intervening to keep discussion in bounds. On at least one occasion an application was voted down without a consensus as to why it should be refused. The poor PO had to go off and try to think up some reasons after the meeting.

 

There is nothing to stop you attending just to listen. If it sounds like discussion is going wrong way you can try and get permission from the chair to speak. He might not allow it as the public aren't meant to speak without notifying the chairman in advance but I have seen it happen. Once the chair actually asked if the owner was present and allowed him to clarify a point. 

 

 

yes exactly this!  it’s like your own personal “Handforth Parish Council” live show!
 

read the standing orders!!! Read them and understand them!!! You have no power here Jackie Weaver! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[Temp]

One member reminded me of this character from the carry on films. Slightly batty....

 

[CharlieKLP]

I remember a similar lady stand there and claim one of those little electricity substation thingies would give her diabetes. 
 

I mean I don’t like them either to be fair, but they definitely don’t give you diabetes. 

[joe90]

We went to committee and it was a joke, my wife explained our plan to fit in and the efforts we made, next our neighbour spoke and told lies, which we were not allowed to question, even a committee member I knew was originally on our side would not look me in the eye and they all voted against our proposal. I then went to appeal (myself) and we won hands down, the inspector actually informed the council in the appeal decision that they were not abiding by their own policies. I am not saying all committees are the same but our area had a reputation for being very difficult to deal with. A close neighbour told me it was because I didn’t give them a big enough bribe 😱. It also depends on whether the objections are valid, one neighbour objected on several issues but each one was thrown out by the inspector as invalid.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, deancatherine09 said:

been involved in committee meetings?

This is how it goes. (I have been at many planning meetings, in 4 different councils.

Spoken at 2 on behalf of our client, OR recommended our client speaks rather than me.

Spoken at 2 on behalf of the parish council.

 

If they will allow you to speak as well as your representative, IF you are confident of yourself and of the content being interesting, then  I recommend you do so.

 

The planners do the hard work and make the recommendations, but can be overturned by councillors whether they are sensible or not. This doesnt apply if the councillors' objections are invalid, but can come down to opinion.

The councillors turn up and chat, and most look at the agenda for the first time. They will vote according to either  going along with the councillor who backs it, (or against it) and the general feeling of the meeting.

The presence of the applicant can make a big difference, and only by speaking do they know you are : there, a genuine applicant not a developer, care.

You have 3 minutes which is like a moment. write down your points, edit, edit again. Read actually out loud and with voice projection and then edit again.

 

Better to make one point well than fill the time for the sake of it.   For example, just say how important this is to you and your family and how you have done whatever special things to make it sensitive to the area, and sit down.

 

the objectors might send someone to speak: all the more reason that you do.

 

It is good to get your own councillor to speak for you if you can. Be mindful though that they also represent the objectors.

If they are prepared to, then normally another councillor will second it, and their mates go along with it as they don't really care about your area.

 

They will not ask you any questions: the meetings do not run like that. Any questions are to the planning officer.

 

Even if you don't speak, be there and sit at the back and wonder at democracy in action...and perhaps despair.

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by saveasteading

[deancatherine09]

Just wanted to extend my profound thanks for all the replies and useful info.

 

Both my partner and I spoke at committee last night - jointly. We spoke about our motivations, how we had made efforts to integrate the proposal into the neighbourhood and the compromises we had made. We also included some brief information about the sustainability of the house we are proposing.

 

Neighbours, parish council and local ward councillor all rallied together and spoke against the proposal. At times their behaviour felt like playground bullies ganging up on us - the 'newbies' to the village, not helped by the fact we are a good 10-20 years younger than them and trying to do something a bit different. They told lies and waffled on about drainage for a while which isn't even a planning matter. The local councillor, which I assume does this a lot, was actually very poor at speaking and did talk about a lot of non planning matters, which was a surprise. Even said the only reason the original planning permission was granted was because the old owner was disabled. That was quickly shot down by the officer. The most obvious and upsetting lie they told was that we hadn't even consulted them about the proposal, when we took round the plans, stood in their kitchen and went through them - with no adverse comments received. I guess they must have developed selective amnesia 🙄

 

One of the committee members was very negative about the proposal, but luckily the rest of them all spoke up in support and on the vote we had 1 abstain and the rest support for permission.

 

All in all, a incredibly stressful process that I do not ever wish to repeat. I think I read a little nugget on here a while back 'you only find out how unhinged your neighbours are when you apply for planning permission'. i can sure say I 100% agree with that now!

 

Onwards and upwards with our project now!

Edited March 16, 2022 by deancatherine09

[saveasteading]

Well done. Your faith in the planners restored?

Think how this is for the planning officers. They have this all the time and have to withstand abuse and noise from all sides, and usually someone is unhappy.

 

6 minutes ago, deancatherine09 said:

The local councillor, which I assume does this a lot, was actually very poor at speaking and did talk about a lot of non planning matters, which was a surprise

You get the choice of 2 or more councillors every 4 years, each selected by a committee of hard-line activists for agreeing to what they want. Then we get to choose one. We don't get to say they are all useless, unless there is a chance of an independent.

Then they don't get much training, and can refuse to take it.

 

I have been at a meeting where the planner repeatedly had to point out that they were only agreeing detail and that outline permission was already awarded, yet one councillor kept saying the should be no building. Officer and Chairman prevailed, eventually.

 

And at one of mine, the Officer kept pointing out that the town needed this proposal for the Plan, and there was no other option.  When the vote came, they somehow managed to 'not count' when the vote was going the 'wrong' way. pointed out a few more key facts. Approved on third attempt by one.

 

So you did well. Do you think that your attendance and statements were crucial?

[deancatherine09]

To be fair, I think our planning officer and the department have been pretty good. They have been hard to get hold of and did cause a frustrating delay after our nitrates information was approved by NE but their report was very thorough and they did multiple site visits (neighbours, our plot). They were very supportive last night. The house that were doing the complaining about the ridge height recently demolished the 5m tall chalet bungalow on their site and built a HUGE 9m tall house - and during the speakers and debate the planning officer left the slide up which showed the before and after for their house. The irony of him standing there with that in the background complaining about our ridge height going up was amusing. Not sure if that was the planner cleverly trying to undermine what he was saying or just a co-incidence. 

 

I do think our attendance and statements helped, whether they were crucial I will never know. One of the councillors in particular kept referring to what we had said in our speech in her supporting statements - especially around us making compromising amendments and the sustainability aspect, which the planning officer didn't touch on so she only knew that from what we said.

 

The parish council and ward councillor both said that we should build the house as per previous permission, but then went on to say that the drainage / parking on the site wouldn't support any new dwelling. There were a lot of contradictions in their objections. Luckily the planning councillors picked them up on that.

 

I do actually think the planning committee did a good job. Obviously I am biased on our proposal, but we did stay and listen to the other two application discussions and they made a good call, including overturning a officers recommendation of refusal on one of them. 

[saveasteading]

Good that you listened to the remaining items, and got the vibe of other applications.  I bet the 'losing' neighbours walked out after yours.

 

For interest, did they have the pro and con sitting apart or all mixed? This varies by council and number of attendees.

[deancatherine09]

40 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Good that you listened to the remaining items, and got the vibe of other applications.  I bet the 'losing' neighbours walked out after yours.

 

For interest, did they have the pro and con sitting apart or all mixed? This varies by council and number of attendees.

 

They all immediately got up and left 🙂

 

They had it all mixed. We were first there and sat on the front row, they came in and sat on the front row other side. I didn't glance over there once throughout the entire meeting - it was pretty awkward to say the least!