Structural Issues/Subsidence

[Zak S]

Hi. Please see attached the images relating to cracks in the extension areas. Internally the entire wall is covered by the wall paper and I cannot see any crack other than some minor cracks on the ceiling here and there (potentially age related). Cracks are the most significant in the extension. On the main house, there are cracks on the external render mainly around the top and bottom of windows/door either side. The images below are only for the extension. I will post separately crack on the external render of the main house.

 

Please could you let me know your thoughts if this could isolated to only extension and if can be fixed by rebuilding with local piles in the extension area without need to underpin the entire house?

 

Also, based on the second post below, are the cracks on the remainder of the bungalow something to worry about?

 

PS: I will be contacting the structural Engineer for his opinion. The purchase is expected to complete in Mar 2022. I did not go for the structural survey initially as I intended to demolish the house but the plan to refurbish it initially and see how things progress hence keen to ensure that structurally any issues are identified and dealt with before completion.

 

[Zak S]

Just now, Zak S said:

On the main house, there are cracks on the external render mainly around the top and bottom of windows/door either side. The images below are only for the extension. I will post separately crack on the external render of the main house.

 

Also, based on the second post below, are the cracks on the remainder of the bungalow something to worry about?

Photos of the main house attached. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

[Adsibob]

I’m not a SE, so no idea really. But based on my own experience of subsidence in a house of a similar age and style, I think that apart from where that tunnel is, none of this looks too serious. Most of your cracks (apart from that tunnel) appear to be close to windows or door arches.  It is more likely that the lintels have rotted or given way slightly, or just shrunk a bit, as lintels in 1920s and 1930s houses were made of wood, which obviously isn’ta great material for a lintel when it is c. 100 years old.

it might be a case of removing the render, then use helibars to stitch the underlying brick work together and possibly also replace the lintels, though this isn’t always necessary. My SE designed a fix like this for the front facade of my 1930s semi when we discovered the brickwork had cracked around the windows after removing the render.

As for the tunnel, that doesn’t look great. But could look worse than it is!

Edited February 27, 2022 by Adsibob

[Makeitstop]

Not much to add either but i would be more looking at the 7th image, where the crack runs horizontally and appears to widen to one end.

 

 

[tonyshouse]

Aerated blocks ?

[ToughButterCup]

Money spent on a proper survey  will allow you to sleep at night. Nowt worse than not knowing....

[tonyshouse]

Arch too close to corner to be viable, flank wall to passage lots of cracks, looks like moving but could be wind, physical damage, poor foundations 

 

side wall of house , crack at low level looks like push from inside, chipboard floor suspected but needs investigations 

[Zak S]

Thanks all for your comments.@ToughButterCup @tonyshouse and @Adsibob I have heard from the vendor and he accepted that there is subsidence in the extension and that it was there when the extension was built before 1995. They bought the house in 1998 and that the crack has not widened since then which I find really hard to believe. My thinking is that if the house has subsidence history it becomes difficult to sell and insure. I am paying c30k higher than next offer (there were multiple offers by the developers who were all interested mainly in the plot so they are indifferent to the subsidence given they all want to knock it down).

 

I am thinking that I should only buy the property if the vendors agreed to fix this issue via piling in that area and rebuild of the walls which is probably going to  e unlikely? 

 

The option the vendor would have is either to relist the property and some developer would probably match or pay slightly less than me or agree to carry out the work for me or reduce the price for the work required.

 

What are your thoughts as to best way to deal with this issue in most intelligent way possible ?.

 

Thing that go in my favour in negotiations with Vendor:

 

1. Been ready to exchange since Sep (when the vendor passed away and waiting for probate which is due imminently)

2. Significant rise in the material price restricting any developer counter offer

3. Potential impact of interest rate rise on the property market (probably developer would buy this for themselves or their family so immune to interest rate rise as cash rich)

4. Impact of recent geo political situation on property prices.

5. Argument regarding difficulty to mortgage and insure the property with subsidence issue.

 

Things that go against me for negotiation with vendor to pay for rectification:

1. Significant interest by developers in the banglow with potential to redevelop

2. I might come across as fussy and vendor might not want to continue the headache

3. Given the issue was there before they bought it so they might not feel obligated to rectify it.

 

Please could you let me know your thoughts on the vendors response and how best to deal with this situation and what is the best course of action and how to best present argument in this negotiations. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Zak S

[tonyshouse]

There is no way that you want them to do work, you need the relationship and control, they will be advised not to do work, just sell. 
 

they may be under pressure as once probate is granted IHT cuts in and the revenue will want money 

 

the cracks will be very off putting to home buyers and mortgage issues will ensue. 
 

what crack are they talking about, there are lots of cracks 

[Adsibob]

If you are buying, then surely your offer is subject to survey? Get a survey from a decent surveyor and ask him to focus on the issues that really matter: subsidence and damp and wood rot. Then see what his survey says and then decide. A little bit of settlement won’t stop you from getting insurance. Subsidence might, and that is when it becomes problematic to sell. Alternatively, if it is fixable with a a few linear metres bit of underpinning or helifixing, then it’s not such a big deal, and you can get a SE to issue a certificate of structural adequacy to enable you to get insurance. Armed with a survey, you can get a quote for the work and the certificate and go back to the vendor and ask for a discount to account for all of that.

[PeterW]

Doubt you’ll get a surveyor to ignore that big horizontal crack - that could well be subsidence from leaking drains below the concrete slab all round the house. I’ve seen whole sections disappear and the concrete acting like a bridge ..!

 

If you’re talking about underpinning then you will need deep pockets as it could be £20-30k and you’re already bidding over the odds. Working in that “tunnel” would be entirely manual and you would have to protect the the other side from subsiding when digging so it may need to be done from the inside. 
 

Not one I would be taking on unless it was £50k under the average for the area as what else needs doing if that’s the mess you can see ..?

[Zak S]

5 minutes ago, tonyshouse said:

There is no way that you want them to do work, you need the relationship and control, they will be advised not to do work, just sell. 
 

they may be under pressure as once probate is granted IHT cuts in and the revenue will want money 

 

the cracks will be very off putting to home buyers and mortgage issues will ensue. 
 

what crack are they talking about, there are lots of cracks 

It's the cracks in the tunnel area picture 1,5,7 and 8. What I meant was that they would need to pay for the work. I can manage the work. But question is how best to approach it?

[Adsibob]

28 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Things that go against me for negotiation with vendor to pay for rectification:

1. Significant interest by developers in the banglow with potential to redevelop

2. I might come across as fussy and vendor might not want to continue the headache

3. Given the issue was there before they bought it so they might not feel obligated to rectify it.

You can’t really compete with point 1. Unless you are going to redevelop it, the value to you of this house is not its redevelopment value. So ignore that consideration.

Point 2 is also irrelevant. You are allowed to reduce your offer after a survey; by how much is down to relative bargaining strength and how obvious the issues “discovered” in the survey were before the survey.

Point 3 also irrelevant. 
 

[Zak S]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

If you’re talking about underpinning

I am talking about removing the extension altogether and then rebuilding it with proper auger piles of 11m deep. There are two wall so probably 6piles should be enough but something to be designed by the SE. Then finish with ring beam and extend roof over it. Size of extension requiring the rebuild is 5m by 3.7m. I want to stay away from underpinning as dont want the record tainted as it makes the property difficult to sell, relatively speaking.

 

10 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Not one I would be taking on unless it was £50k under the average for the area as what else needs doing if that’s the mess you can see ..?

It's just par with market value, may be slight edging on the higher side. The price was agreed in June and due to vendor passing away, I am having to wait for probate. All the banks valuation and the legal work is done. I did not do the structural valuation as was planning to knock it down but no reconsidering it and hence dont want to be in a situation where it becomes a liability.

[Marvin]

You assume the vendors have the money sitting around in order to do the work.

 

In my humble opinion, there is little attractive appeal with the existing building.

 

Either buy it to live in, demolish it and start again or don't buy it would be my choices.

 

Best of luck

 

Marvin.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Marvin
Add info

[PeterW]

Single storey extension I would go for a raft every day of the week - piling will be a huge effort for a small section of building. 
 

I’d also consider the whole lot going if you’re having to do that for such a small part - why the desire to rebuild what is there..?

[Zak S]

13 minutes ago, Marvin said:

You assume the vendors have the money sitting around in order to do the work.

 

In my humble opinion, there is little attractive appeal with the existing building.

 

Either buy it to live in, demolish it and start again or don't buy it would be my choices.

 

Best of luck

 

Marvin.

How about if he pays out of the sale proceeds ie I buy of him with the condition to get the rectification work to be done and he pay for it.

[Zak S]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Single storey extension I would go for a raft every day of the week - piling will be a huge effort for a small section of building. 
 

I’d also consider the whole lot going if you’re having to do that for such a small part - why the desire to rebuild what is there..?

It's on a very soft clayey land. I have already commissioned GI report and they suggested only way is Auger Piles at 11m or ground improvement work.

 

I am trying to cover the risk. Just in case if I am not able to redevlope it, I dont want to get stuck with something I cant sell. Redevelopment is my option (subject to affordability); I dont want it to be a necessity hence I want to buy something without obvious defects at current market value. 

[Marvin]

9 hours ago, Zak S said:

How about if he pays out of the sale proceeds ie I buy of him with the condition to get the rectification work to be done and he pay for it.

I can't say what other people would do but I wouldn't agree to sell a property with the condition that I pay some time in the future the cost of unknown works to the property I now don't own. Will the bill be 10k or 100k? You want the property, you take the risk, and that is basically what the other lower bids are about.

 

[Russell griffiths]

9 hours ago, Zak S said:

I am talking about removing the extension altogether and then rebuilding it with proper auger piles of 11m deep. There are two wall so probably 6piles should be enough but something to be designed by the SE. Then finish with ring beam and extend roof over it. Size of extension requiring the rebuild is 5m by 3.7m. I want to stay away from underpinning as dont want the record tainted as it makes the property difficult to sell, relatively speaking.

 

It's just par with market value, may be slight edging on the higher side. The price was agreed in June and due to vendor passing away, I am having to wait for probate. All the banks valuation and the legal work is done. I did not do the structural valuation as was planning to knock it down but no reconsidering it and hence dont want to be in a situation where it becomes a liability.

If you first looked at it with the view to knocking it down then do that. 
trying to bring that up to a good standard will end in just another poorly built house with a nice extension stuck on it. 
you can roll a turd in glitter, but it’s still a turd. 

[Mr Punter]

Don't try to negotiate until the probate has been agreed and everyone is in a position to exchange.  Just before exchange, briefly explain the issue with subsidence and request that the contract price is reduced to X on the basis that you will exchange contracts the following day / end of the week.

[Zak S]

2 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

If you first looked at it with the view to knocking it down then do that. 
trying to bring that up to a good standard will end in just another poorly built house with a nice extension stuck on it. 
you can roll a turd in glitter, but it’s still a turd. 

The issue is I was always buying the house with an option to be able to knock it down rather than as a plot of land. I dont mind if the property can sell for the same value as I bought it for, rather than it becoming just a plot due to structural issue which comes with it hence limiting the market it can attract. A house is a house regardless of its condition. A property with subsidence just spooks people away.

[Zak S]

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

I can't say what other people would do but I wouldn't agree to sell a property with the condition that I pay some time in the future the cost of unknown works to the property I now don't own. Will the bill be 10k or 100k? You want the property, you take the risk, and that is basically what the other lower bids are about.

 

I learned that next offer was £30-50k lower back in June last year (I ended up gazumping a developer). Not sure which way market has gone since then taking into account house price increases, interest rate/inflation rise and current geo political situation.

 

I am thinking of commissioning the structural survey and then will get a quote for the work which I can then discuss with the vendor. I think the remedial work would be in the region of £30-40k (basically remove the existing walls and floors, put in a raft/piles in that area and rebuild the wall and roof section  and then finishing). Its 18.5sqm in terms of the area measured externally. What would you do if you were a vendor? Would you let go ready to exchange deal for 30-50k? What if I ask him to pay me fixed price for the rectification with worrying about the management of the build work.

[Zak S]

54 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Don't try to negotiate until the probate has been agreed and everyone is in a position to exchange.  Just before exchange, briefly explain the issue with subsidence and request that the contract price is reduced to X on the basis that you will exchange contracts the following day / end of the week.

Thanks. That's a great idea. Reduction in price does not really work for me as it reduces the mortgage loan. If I treat this fixed price for essential repairs paid to me or the contractor post completion, would that work?

[Mr Punter]

That is one for your solicitor.  I don't think the lender will agree and they may get spooked by the essential work.  Even if it was doable you would be paying a fair bit more SDLT than you would otherwise.