joe90 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 It appears about 50% of our electricity is generated using gas so the prices have to be linked. Might be worth using gas from that mothballed plant in the short term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 13 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said: don't know but beyond the cult-like belief system of this forum it is an incontrovertible truth that an ASHP setup costs way more than a gas boiler equivalent. The market might normalise one day because as you indicate the fundamentals should not lead to such a price discrepancy. eh..?? Decent gas boiler, £1200 plus the gas pipework and about a day of a GSR to fit it so another £500. 9kW ASHP £2300 plus a day of any plumber to fit it so say £300 on top. £1700 vs £2600 is small change in a £300k build cost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) I am currently reading a book about oil. Just finished the chapter about drilling. When it was written, the cost of drilling was $9/boe. This has been steadily increasing since 1984. Gas exploration and drilling is a similar price. There are 1628 kWh in a barrel. Onshore wind is now about $1000/kW installed capacity (maybe a little less in developing nations). So if ever US dollar spent on getting oil/gas was put into onshore wind, and assuming a life of 25 years, you would get 0.073.5 MWh/$, whereas oil is giving you 0.18 MWh/$. Whoops, error corrected. Edited February 13, 2022 by SteamyTea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 19 minutes ago, PeterW said: eh..?? Decent gas boiler, £1200 plus the gas pipework and about a day of a GSR to fit it so another £500. 9kW ASHP £2300 plus a day of any plumber to fit it so say £300 on top. £1700 vs £2600 is small change in a £300k build cost. Recently had quotes to supply & connect boiler to gas only for a bog standard Glowworm ~ £1900 best. Plus no guarantee that it would get sign-off due to sharing gas with another boiler in the house. Hence currently scanning round for a small ASHP to heat workshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldDoItUpper Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 hour ago, PeterW said: eh..?? Decent gas boiler, £1200 plus the gas pipework and about a day of a GSR to fit it so another £500. 9kW ASHP £2300 plus a day of any plumber to fit it so say £300 on top. £1700 vs £2600 is small change in a £300k build cost. So why have I been quoted £14-16k by three different companies for an ASHP and DHW cylinder?!? Surely the addition of a cylinder can’t be an additional £13k?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 19 minutes ago, CotswoldDoItUpper said: So why have I been quoted £14-16k by three different companies for an ASHP and DHW cylinder?!? Surely the addition of a cylinder can’t be an additional £13k?!? RHI..?? The units are £2-4K depending on size. Cylinder is same cost whether you go gas or ASHP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Radian said: Recently had quotes to supply & connect boiler to gas only for a bog standard Glowworm ~ £1900 best. Plus no guarantee that it would get sign-off due to sharing gas with another boiler in the house. Hence currently scanning round for a small ASHP to heat workshop. For a data point, I've just had 2 boiler replacements in student houses. 2 x Baxi 830. With new magnetic filters. 10yr guarantee. £3200 including fitting for the two. Organised by our LA who manage a couple of hundred properties and have in house labour, so probably a decent price. That's including VAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: 2 x Baxi 830. With new magnetic filters. 10yr guarantee. £3200 including fitting for the two. That is just the boiler though (and a filter). That is a pretty quick job. But you were charged at least £620 each for the fitting. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384677267529 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBMS Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 3 hours ago, PeterW said: eh..?? Decent gas boiler, £1200 plus the gas pipework and about a day of a GSR to fit it so another £500. 9kW ASHP £2300 plus a day of any plumber to fit it so say £300 on top. £1700 vs £2600 is small change in a £300k build cost. As I mentioned on a previous thread… a good 12kw ASHP is 4K+ (Nibe or similar). Unvented cylinder - 1k. 100l buffer - £500. Controllers and pipe work £250. I would argue this is a much more realistic price for a diy install. That doesn’t have a 7 year warranty. I’ve been quoted 11k for a Nibe install. With a 5k voucher the end cost is less than I could DIY install. That’s for a good, branded, warrantied ASHP mind, not a 2k eBay one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: That is just the boiler though (and a filter). That is a pretty quick job. But you were charged at least £620 each for the fitting. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384677267529 That one looks like a return or similar. Not how I would get a boiler. “Image on the listing is from the item catalogue. The item is in an as new condition. It has been inspected and fully checked and is in full working order. The item is complete with all parts and accessories included. The item may show minor cosmetic marks and/or scratches. Packaging may have been replaced and/or may show signs of storage damage.” As for the fitting charge - no problem with that as I get an excellent, comprehensive, very cost-effective service. And I don't have to co-ordinate anything or deal with the students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 3 hours ago, joe90 said: It appears about 50% of our electricity is generated using gas so the prices have to be linked. Might be worth using gas from that mothballed plant in the short term. That could be down to 30-35% over the summer, and only go back to 40% at this time next year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 17 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said: Your were in IT and so you should understand that the leading edge of a technology trend is overpriced and human skills with a new technology command a premium. As the many tales of ASHP operational woes indicate the consequential suffering caused by ASHP installation incompetence will cost more than the premium price of a competent installation. Look at the @joe90thread, in his otherwise perfectly executed self build it took the combined wisdom of the best forum brains weeks to diagnose his wonky heating system. Heat pumps are hardly leading edge. The market for them in Europe (including UK) has been significant for many years. https://www.rehva.eu/rehva-journal/chapter/european-heat-pump-market It's more to do with mass-unfamiliarity in the UK. And some rather vivid scaremongering from our wazzock-ridden media, and industry lobbies seeing the 21st C version of a Spanish Treasure Fleet, so running up the Jolly Roger. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBMS Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: The market for them in Europe (including UK) has been significant for many years Is 11% adoption across Europe significant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, SBMS said: Is 11% adoption across Europe significant? I think sales of 500k units in 2005 growing to 1.6 million a year last year is significant, yes. Certainly in terms of a technology no longer being "early adopter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 hour ago, SBMS said: As I mentioned on a previous thread… a good 12kw ASHP is 4K+ (Nibe or similar). Samsung EHS 12kW is change of £2500… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBMS Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 10 minutes ago, PeterW said: Samsung EHS 12kW is change of £2500… True, but ecodan/vaillant/nibe ~12kw variants aren’t. I often wonder what the difference between a 2500 and a 5000 ASHP is… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Samsung use the same compressors as Mitsubishi - Brushless twin rotor inverter units. And Vaillant are not a premium brand ! Late to the party, and some questionable reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBMS Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, PeterW said: Samsung use the same compressors as Mitsubishi - Brushless twin rotor inverter units. And Vaillant are not a premium brand ! Late to the party, and some questionable reliability. Interesting! How about nibe? We’ve been recommended them by our installer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesP Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 My brother has a Nibe 2040 which seems (to my ears ) noisier than the Ecodan so depending on where it is sited might have an impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Given that electric, gas, and oil prices are all only going one way, both through demand and government market distoring measures, surely as part of any installation you should be considering solar, thus reducing reliance on whatever energy source you choose. Whilst the hardware may cost, its a much more certain running and payback cost. I think even this government would find it hard to tax sunsine!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 Solar PV, but to reduce heating demand through winter, you may need thermal and/or a load of PV with a DC immersion(s), through a thermal store Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Whilst the hardware may cost And, generally, you need a grid connection. £0.45/day is near enough £165/year. About 600 kWh of electricity. 10 minutes ago, Roger440 said: I think even this government would find it hard to tax sunsine The Spanish government managed it. They just made small generators pay to supply the grid on historic grid connect system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 I am definitely thinking of DIY installing PV like @ProDave did. It will easily go on my garage roof and faces due south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Ferdinand said: I think sales of 500k units in 2005 growing to 1.6 million a year last year is significant, yes. Certainly in terms of a technology no longer being "early adopter". The issue is about growth rate. Your figures illustrate how many ASHP installers are new to the business and how many newly formed business in this sector will be inducing these inexperienced installers with more money to install the next 3 million ASHPs. This is the economic environment that leads to high prices and screwed up ASHP installations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: And, generally, you need a grid connection. £0.45/day is near enough £165/year. About 600 kWh of electricity. The Spanish government managed it. They just made small generators pay to supply the grid on historic grid connect system. I was thinking water based solar to heat water, both DHW and heating circuit. No grid connection required. Just a very big tank. Supplemented by boiler, GSHP, ASHP. Maybe some electrical as per Prodave. Granted, not going to be easy on a small site, but with a bit of space, might work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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