Grian Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 @Gus Potter That is a brilliantly creative perspective. The roof soundproofing is especially appropriate as we have a crow (Russell) who delights in waking people before 5am by pecking the static caravan roof loudly, everyone on first hearing it thinks someone is knocking at the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Thanks @SteamyTea 14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: That idea I like very much. Much appreciated. Inverted roofs are something not much touched on on BH. More commonly you see them on larger refurbishment development and commercial stuff. They do have their issues but this for something like what @Grian wants to do on a limited budget while mitigating the financial risk, the constraints i.e moveable.. it could be an elegant, cost effective and environmentally positive solution. On the technical side I mentioned TF. You can increase the stiffness of a TF panel (thus better able to resist the sideways wind loading) by adding compression from above so the slabs perform this function.. it's all about getting the different elements of these small light weight buildings to do more than one job.. you look to get your pound of flesh out of them. Yes in a windy spot you will probably still need to tie down with cables for a bit of robustnees but the in the round I think this is worth a look at concept wise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, Gus Potter said: On the technical side I mentioned TF. You can increase the stiffness of a TF panel (thus better able to resist the sideways wind loading) by adding compression from above so the slabs perform this function. Seem to remember learning about that. Cathetderal builders put heavy statues on the wall tops to help stabilizer the structure. Suppose it works the same a pre stressed concrete. Does it increase the risk of buckling if the mass is too great. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, Grian said: @Gus Potter That is a brilliantly creative perspective. The roof soundproofing is especially appropriate as we have a crow (Russell) who delights in waking people before 5am by pecking the static caravan roof loudly, everyone on first hearing it thinks someone is knocking at the door. Grian.. remember if you make something like this fly, enjoy building it and make some money then you got a leg up from BH.. so a small donation to BH would oil the works! I do think that if you have a local joiner on hand you could build a safe structure for holiday accomodation out of timber frame for not a massive outlay. You could almost have detachable cladding.. in effect the structural TF sits there and the outside cladding acts as a rain screen.. could be just recycled pallet wood at the very basic. As this is a temporary moveable structure not a house that you get a mortgage on that has a life expenctancy of 60 years you can afford to change the cladding and appearance if you wanted to suit you target market. I don't know where you are but the saw mills do some real rough but cheep timber off the outside of the log that can be used for cheep rain screening. You could use all sorts of material depending on what visual impression you want to give out.. I love this stuff. You could have great fun exploring what you can do and how you tailor the appearance to your intended holidaymaker market. My sister has a B & B on Tiree so the market there is split between commercial clients coming to serve the radio mast, fix the fridges in the coop ect and at the other end folk going for a holiday that want to stay in a nice place. Keep posting! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Seem to remember learning about that. Cathetderal builders put heavy statues on the wall tops to help stabilizer the structure. Suppose it works the same a pre stressed concrete. Does it increase the risk of buckling if the mass is too great. As always Steamy you are spot on! and elegant points made. For all, hope this helps the keen tecky. Take a timber floor joist, or a ruler at home. Support it at each end an apply a load in the middle. The ruler bends down so the top shortens and is in compression, the bottom stretches so is in tension. Masonry ( brick walls) are not good at resisting tension.. so if you add enough load to the top of the wall then the masonry never gets to the tension stage. Steamy is spot on.. this is the one of the basic basic concepts of prestressed concrete design. Steamy mentions what is called "buckling".. again correct. Put the ruler on it end and push down from the top. Suddenly it will give way.. this is a buckiling phenomena.. Euler circa 1700's the mathematiccian developed the theory behind this and is a fundamental principle underpinning what SE's do today. So yes Steamy, if you add to much load you risk buckling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 9 hours ago, Gus Potter said: Euler circa 1700's the mathematiccian developed the theory behind this Clever bloke he was. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/euler-column-formula-d_1813.html One day I shall get to fully understand 'moments of inertia'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 16 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Did you tell them that you want a large electrical shower i.e. > 15 kW 9-10Kw will probably be enough and I suspect the electrician will have had this sort of size in mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpd Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 12 hours ago, Gus Potter said: In terms of proving it is "movable" then if you made the main section no wider than 2.9m then this would fit on the back of a low loader without being classed as an abnormal load as I understand? i am not up to date with the regs but I think all you need to do is be able to show that theoretically it can be moved, is this not what @Crofter did, and comply to the size restrictions….. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crofter Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 On 23/01/2022 at 08:24, Cpd said: i am not up to date with the regs but I think all you need to do is be able to show that theoretically it can be moved, is this not what @Crofter did, and comply to the size restrictions….. The requirements are derived from the Caravans Act. Internal max height of 3.048m, width of 6m, length of 18m. Can optionally be split in to no more than two sections. It's not a magic bullet. You can't use a raft foundation so you end up with long spans and expensive joists. I built a hefty ring beam as a sort of chassis, instead of a simple wall plate. Financially, you can't get a mortgage on a portable building, nor will you get your VAT back. So you may not make the savings you envisage. But it worked for me. I avoided the need for the building warrant and its fees and drawings. I could also deviate better and there from the regulations, although I chose to follow them in almost every aspect as most of them are there for a good reason. I wasn't going to get my VAT back anyway, and I wasn't securing a loan against it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Crofter said: width of 6m, length of 18m 108 m2. 5 minutes ago, Crofter said: Internal max height of 3.048m Makes a volume, after insulation, of around 275 m3 My house, 48 m2 and 240 m3 I fancy one of these. Edited January 24, 2022 by SteamyTea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplysimon Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 On 22/01/2022 at 22:00, Gus Potter said: The ruler bends down so the top shortens and is in compression, the bottom stretches so is in tension apologies to @ProDave, @Nickfromwales and others i've forgotten, i do wish sparkies and plumbers appreciated this prior to renovations ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, Simplysimon said: apologies to @ProDave, @Nickfromwales and others i've forgotten, i do wish sparkies and plumbers appreciated this prior to renovations ? In the spirit of BH... you may need to offer up a bit more than an apology! maybe an "abject apology".. or a bottle of something in the post! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplysimon Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, Gus Potter said: In the spirit of BH... you may need to offer up a bit more than an apology! maybe an "abject apology".. or a bottle of something in the post! those who 'profess to be sparkies and plumbers', those who 'work with electricity and water' any better? ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, Simplysimon said: On 22/01/2022 at 22:00, Gus Potter said: The ruler bends down so the top shortens and is in compression, the bottom stretches so is in tension apologies to @ProDave, @Nickfromwales and others i've forgotten, i do wish sparkies and plumbers appreciated this prior to renovations Did they drill holes, willy nilly, in your joists and beams. They are given a book that tells them what they are allowed to do. @Gus Potter If you are up for it, I may start a thread about something structural I was thinking about as I did the long drive back today (was even longer as there was a 'jumper' on the M5 with loads of rubber neckers on my side of the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplysimon Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Did they drill holes, willy nilly, in your joists and beams. They are given a book that tells them what they are allowed to do. nope, been on many jobs where you sometimes wonder how the floor is still up, know the areas and dims as to where to bore/notch, some people don't or just don't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, Simplysimon said: those who 'profess to be sparkies and plumbers', those who 'work with electricity and water' any better? ? Oh yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: @Gus Potter If you are up for it, I may start a thread about something structural I was thinking about as I did the long drive back today (was even longer as there was a 'jumper' on the M5 with loads of rubber neckers on my side of the road. Yes would be up for that and chip in with content. There are some great blogs on BH. The trick would maybe be to identify what is current on BH while also covering say basic beam design, how structures stay up and the things to consider if you are say self building or extending. I don't know how hard it would be for the mods to create some kind of indexing system to make it easier for folk to find what they want within the blog? This probably already exists? You could take @Grian Something like this although small and a bit different it has a lot of different structural elements that could be used as great examples. It's not just the structure, it's how it interacts with the insulation, wind.. and so on. Edited January 24, 2022 by Gus Potter to add a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 33 minutes ago, Gus Potter said: I don't know how hard it would be for the mods to create some kind of indexing system to make it easier for folk to find what they want within the blog? This probably already exists? It exists already … key words or tags can be added to the start of a new thread or blog post 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 On 22/01/2022 at 13:36, Grian said: It would share water, electricity and septic tank with the house, and would sleep two, with en-suite, wood stove and very basic kitchen facilities. I will need planning permission but would hope that having a small 'moveable' building as per caravan regs I would only need to involve building control in relation to connecting to drainage. @Grian I think you need to approach this from the “how small can we make it” approach and think comfy caravan as a starting point and only add size if it adds significant value. I’ve been hunting through my links and bookmarks as I am sure I have some links to a beautiful teardrop shaped cabin in Canada that has to survive wind and snow but they have given it near 180° panoramic views and the whole lot was made offsite using 8x2 modules that were bolted together on site. They did some clever stuff with a porch so that the inside was kept clean (and warm) and also additional storage. Same thing with doors that open out, all things that save space, and sliding or pocket doors on bathrooms etc. The other benefit of a teardrop or triangular shape is that it “opens up” a view, and you can use the small space for WC/shower and then make the front space more open plan and have the sofa / bed / living space. Adding in lots of light to the front and you create some clever open spaces. One consideration that you could make (assuming you have decent water pressure) is to use a small unvented cylinder. You can then use immersions to heat it, and even use a solar panel or two as a power source. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpd Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 8 hours ago, PeterW said: I think you need to approach this from the “how small can we make it” approach and think comfy caravan as a starting point and only add size if it adds significant value. This is a really good bit of advice, my cabin is tiny but I have the kitchen tagged on as a separate room as well as the shower also tagged on separately, this means that both the kitchen and shower can have good extraction and be well vented and your not getting excess moisture and smells in the living / sleeping area. Creating something small and unique will be far more attractive as a selling point than just a standard shepherds hut or square box…. Quirkiness can be tagged on at the end but would be far better if designed in at the begging, it’s what catches peoples eye when they are scanning through the endless list of accommodations, it definitely works for me as I am getting over 100 people a day clicking on my page and it’s only January ? and I don’t open until April! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Ah... disappointing. I read the title as Design / costs for a shepherd's hut or moveable 'brothel'... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, MJNewton said: Ah... disappointing. I read the title as Design / costs for a shepherd's hut or moveable 'brothel'... Check on AirB&B and see what other services are offered. Or maybe on Bonking.com 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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