Planning Permission Refusal - Next Steps

[JAS-Build]

So after a six month wait we got a No from the Planning department on Christmas Eve.  We're now hoping to get in front of the local Planning Committee.

We should do it seems, because in line with the Council's Scheme of Delegation if the planning officer is at odds with any of the consultees it should, and we have both the Parish Council and our next door neighbour who have supported.
The wording we have from planning department is:

"The proposed replacement dwelling, by reason of its scale and mass, would harm the character and appearance of the area".
We're wanting to build a 4 bed eco-house in local stone and timber to replace our tired 3 bed red brick bungalow on a 2 acre plot in our 10 acre property sited 120m from the road, and we're building 10% smaller than we could extend the bungalow to under Permitted Development.

A close neighbour with a smaller plot, closer to the road replaced their old bungalow with a house 10% bigger than PD in local stone and timber and it went smoothly through Planning, so we thought it sensible to follow that precedent, and this was heavily referenced in our application.
Any advice welcome. Thanks.

John

[Big Jimbo]

Did the planning officer speak to you during the time that the application was being considered.

[Wayne Taylor]

If a neighbor has built bigger than your development and with similar materials, surely this sets a precedent for approval at appeal stage?

[joe90]

I was refused for the same reasons, yes go fir committee next (tho that failed with us) I think you need to get a local councillor to call it to committee . If that fails then go to appeal like I did (and won?), like you we had a big site (1 acre) , frankly going to appeal was easier than applying for planning. I did my own and the appeal officer said the local planners were not abiding by their own policies!!,,,, don’t give up.

[JAS-Build]

46 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Did the planning officer speak to you during the time that the application was being considered.

Sadly not. 

He didn't do a site visit (unlike the Parish Council) and wouldn't communicate other than by email over the 3 extensions he asked for and we granted.

It seems to us that the Pre App guidance wasn't looked at either since that said the scale of the proposed new build was OK.  

 

[Wayne Taylor]

Seems to me in some cases that people don't like change regardless of there being some merit in the application, therefore they'll refuse/object in the hope it will put the applicant's off the process - and I've seen this happen too. Perseverance is key as it sounds like you have a case. Good luck 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Wayne Taylor

[nod]

It’s a real problem planners not following there own rules 

Ours has insisted on a flood report 

and when it came back She decided not to agree with the findings 

We went directly to the Environment Agency Who has forced the planner to concede Now she’s found something else 

I would definitely appeal 

[joe90]

Oh yes, our planners Disagreed with the bat survey but the appeal officer told them they were not qualified to!! (Bloody planners ?)

[nod]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

Oh yes, our planners Disagreed with the bat survey but the appeal officer told them they were not qualified to!! (Bloody planners ?)

Ours has dIsagreed with the flood expert 

Could understand how land could show as Zone 2 on the Environment website 

and to have change to zone 1

Our expert simply said if that’s her attitude There’s no point trying to educate her 

Bypass her 

 

Sorry for drifting off topic 

But it all amounts to the same thing In 

Most walks of life You have to justify your actions 

Planners don’t seem to think they have to 

 

On our first build Someone on here told me Planners are playing with peoples lives 

 

Ps Design looks absolutely fabulous 

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, joe90 said:

(Bloody planners ?)

Yes, in my experience tossers with a limited vocabulary of - massing, bulk, form, scale, incongruous and discordant used for refusing applications.

[Temp]

5 hours ago, JAS-Build said:

We're wanting to build a 4 bed eco-house in local stone and timber to replace our tired 3 bed red brick bungalow on a 2 acre plot in our 10 acre property sited 120m from the road, and we're building 10% smaller than we could extend the bungalow to under Permitted Development.

A close neighbour with a smaller plot, closer to the road replaced their old bungalow with a house 10% bigger than PD in local stone and timber and it went smoothly through Planning, so we thought it sensible to follow that precedent, and this was heavily referenced in our application.

 

Think I would reply asking him to refer it to the Planning Committee. Repeat the sentiment expressed in the above paragraph in the letter and point out that the Parish and neighbours are happy and tell him it would be your intention to appeal if the application is refused. 

 

It wouldn't be unreasonable to copy the Chair of the Planning Committee and/or your Councillor with the letter and perhaps include your best rendering to remind him of the proposal.

 

 

[joe90]

My planner even told me I would probably win if I went to appeal, go figure ?

[Bramco]

Tell them in view of their response, you're thinking of selling the plot for an executive ghetto - bet they'll whoop with joy as it will make their numbers easier to achieve.

 

More seriously, don't let them get you down, make sure of all your facts, try to get the local councillor on board etc. and appeal if nothing else works. Plenty on here have and have won - we did in the Green Belt...

 

Simon

 

PS Also talk to the neighbours and find out how much their back hander was, or who they know in the planning department.....

[Temp]

26 minutes ago, Bramco said:

PS Also talk to the neighbours and find out how much their back hander was, or who they know in the planning department.....

 

@JAS-Build said the neighbours was supportive.

[Bramco]

Just now, Temp said:

said the neighbours was supportive.

 

But what's their connection?   How did it work for them?

 

Golf club?   .....    

 

Simon

[JAS-Build]

56 minutes ago, Bramco said:

 

But what's their connection?   How did it work for them?

 

Golf club?   .....    

 

Simon

I didn't get chance to confirm how our near neighbour had such an easy ride with Planning - he's recently sold and moved away. 

 

Our next door neighbours, and in fact all near neighbours, are supportive of our plans. Just not the Planning Officer ?

[Johnnyt]

"The proposed replacement dwelling, by reason of its scale and mass, would harm the character and appearance of the area".

 

Is this the only reason for refusal on the decision notice, if so it is purely subjective?

Or is there anything else cited ?

 

I asked because our initial application was refused for character and greenbelt reasons.

Once we were confident on the greenbelt element for the refusal could be overcome that left us to deal with the landscape and character issue.

 

It would appear no absolute planning policy has been breached but rather it doesn't suit the opinion of the planning officer.

A superior authority, ie an inspector could come to a different opinion if well reasoned.

A landscape visual impact assessment my help........it  certainly did with our appeal, an expert could demonstrate in detail why it is acceptable in landscape and visual amenity terms.

 

[Haylingbilly]

I would go straight to appeal and not waste any time with the local planners. And ask for costs as their decision looks to be meritless on what you have shared.

 

Bloody planners.

[Gone West]

12 hours ago, Johnnyt said:

Is this the only reason for refusal on the decision notice, if so it is purely subjective?

It's always subjective because the policies are written in such an ambiguous way that the planners can use them as they want. The Head of Planning told me one Planning Officer might refuse an application and another officer in the same office permit it. We went to the Planning Committee and won unanimously much to the planners annoyance. The planners themselves told me they didn't have anyone with design qualifications and asked the Conservation Officer to look at my application.

[Temp]

In theory you don't even need to wait for them to formally reject it before appealing. If the letter from the planning officer is just an opinion not a formal rejection letter you can appeal for non-determination as they are over the time limit.

[Mr Punter]

Call your local Councillor and see if you can get it called in to Committee.  It is a great looking scheme.

[joe90]

22 hours ago, Andy brown said:

And ask for costs as their decision looks to be meritless on what you have shared.

You can only demand costs if you can prove the planners broke the rules, not abiding by their own policies even is not enough to ask fir costs (ask me how I know). I would get someone to do a “street view”, mine was done by an architect who did a pen sketch of the outline of the house, hedges, trees and neighbours to show the actual impact.  This helped a lot with the appeal.

[JAS-Build]

On 05/01/2022 at 19:30, joe90 said:

You can only demand costs if you can prove the planners broke the rules, not abiding by their own policies even is not enough to ask fir costs (ask me how I know). I would get someone to do a “street view”, mine was done by an architect who did a pen sketch of the outline of the house, hedges, trees and neighbours to show the actual impact.  This helped a lot with the appeal.

 

Thanks Joe90.  

This is the 'street view' photo submitted in the Design Statement by our architect, together with a couple of others.  This, plus our proposed additional tree planting in the landscaping plan, makes the proposed house all but invisible to the public.  Our nearest neighbours can see some of it side on but they're happy and sent a supporting comment during the Council's consultation period.  

[JAS-Build]

On 05/01/2022 at 18:48, Mr Punter said:

Call your local Councillor and see if you can get it called in to Committee.  It is a great looking scheme.

Thanks Mr Punter.

We called our Ward Councillor and explained what has happened but she said she could do nothing specific to help us because she's the Vice Chair of the Planning Committee (!) and can't be seen to favour her voters.

We've now contacted the Chair of the Planning Committee asking for her to take it to the next meeting on 8th Feb - she'd replied saying it's not her decision but that of the Head of Planning under their Scheme of Delegation.

We've contacted the Head of Planning 10 days ago asking for clarification of the Scheme of Delegation and the 'calling to Planning Committee' process but he hasn't replied....

We're reluctant to go straight to appeal because if we do it will mean we'll probably miss the 30th April Bat Season date and, in addition to all our bat survey work needing to be redone,  it means our hands are tied to do anything until the 2022 bat season starts on 1st October.  If we are lucky to get to the Feb Planning Committee and get an Approval we can still get a bat licence on our paid for surveys and will re-home them before the 30th April deadline so we are able to start the new build this Spring.

Here's hoping!!

John

[epsilonGreedy]

On 04/01/2022 at 10:24, JAS-Build said:

and we have both the Parish Council and our next door neighbour who have supported.

 

Received wisdom on this forum is that Parish Councils have very little influence on planning decisions, the usual context of such discussions is an objection from the PC. By implication their support does not count for much.

 

Your design is rather large, it looks over 3000 sq ft of internal floor space. When you made a comparison with your existing bungalow was that based on ground foot print or livable internal floor space?  

Edited January 11, 2022 by epsilonGreedy